shoulder plane and elbow position

[Daryl]

Sorry Daryl,

My questions did get a little scattered there and maybe I shouldn't have brought up anything about hitting because I don't feel my action is hitting.

Your feedback was great because the 2 areas that i'm concerned with are losing both the bent right arm and bent right wrist too early.

here's a vid of the drill you asked me to try.
http://widedivots.com/video/swing/1782/attempts

Hmm? It's not right but that's ok. It was my instructions. I left out a part. I'll do better next time.

Now, don't ever bend the right arm that far again. Bend it no more than 90 degrees for the rest of my life.

When you stop the bend at 90 degrees, your Right Elbow will separate from your torso at the Top as your Arms raise and the Elbow becomes much more On-Plane. Then you have a chance at developing Hand Acceleration which occurs when the Elbow returns to in-front of the Right Hip during the Downswing (more Right Elbow travel, more Acceleration). Keep your right arm bent at 90 degrees during the Downswing (without unbending your Right Elbow) until release.

If you do the above, 'you-Golfer'. Then, you can perform whats Below.

SECRETS: The Palms, or Back of the Hands are not exactly Parallel to each other with a 10-2-B Grip.

Release: For a Flat Left Wrist Swinger, you bend the Right Wrist and Turn the Back of the Right Hand to Plane (Bent Right Wrist) during the Take-away and Keep it there during the Backswing and Downswing. This Way, your Left Wrist remains Flat but your Clubshaft remains On-Plane. During the Downstroke, The Right Elbow Returns to In-Front of the Right Hip for Release.

For a Snap Release: you Turn the Back of the Left Hand to Plane during the Take-away and Keep it there during the Backswing and Downswing. Your Left Wrist Will have a Cup when you Cock your Left Wrist in order for the Back of your Left Hand to be On-plane. So, the Left Wrist will be slightly Bent and the Right Wrist will be Slightly Less Bent, but the Back of the Left Hand will be Flat against the Plane during the Backstroke and Downstroke and the Clubshaft will be On-Plane. This will Re-Locate the Right Elbow a Few inches or more inside the Right Hip for Release. The Bend in the Left Wrist will Flatten when Uncocking Begins and you can Roll the Primary Lever intact to Low-Point and beyond.

[O.B.Left]

Hi O.B.

Yep. Delayed. An Almost "must do" procedures for Swingers; but, I do preset my Hips out of the way of the Backstroke like Hogan and Brian Gay with a set-up procedure.

I wasnt referring to a mere turn of the rigth hip out of the way or a pre set but an actual slight lateral bump of the hips as a first move going back with a delayed turn even. I dont do it, but believe this to be the Hula Hula, Standard Hip Action, Luke and others employ.

Love your thing about Swingers leaving the right elbow in place.

No, Never, not even If Tortured. Unless you're a Hitter.

Are you saying Hitters are Tortured? How rude. This was a surprise for me too when I first heard it. The Green Guy may have to wade in here but it does reconcile some conflicting concepts for me. Like how does the grip end stay in front of the body in start up etc. You know the grip end in the belly button drill vs a quick move of the left arm across the chest like in an actively fanning right arm in startup with a quiet pivot. With the Pivot taking care of the Fanning the Right arm need only do the pickup, bending. Bottom line is you dont want to freeze your pivot in startup, Hitting or Swinging.

Hands never move on their own Power. They move Away from the Right Shoulder, but as a Package, Pivoting downward from the shoulder sockets during the Downstroke as though both arms and elbows and hands were in a cast with no parts moving at a different speed than another. The Direction is Down, not out. Outward is for Release.

Thanks for this insight. But how can they move Down, not Out when traveling on an inclined plane?

[Daryl]

I wasnt referring to a mere turn of the rigth hip out of the way or a pre set but an actual slight lateral bump of the hips as a first move going back with a delayed turn even. I dont do it, but believe this to be the Hula Hula, Standard Hip Action, Luke and others employ.

It makes sense that Luke and others Hitters bump to the Right because it's the precise path that an Extensor Action Take-away moves their Left Hand. By having their Hands Forward Pressed, Extensor Action Force moves them Straight to the Right (parallel) with the Plane-Line which creates the "Sawing" motion of the Right Elbow. So, for Hitters, bumping the Hip is with-in their Alignment 'protocol' and may be a very correct Start-Up Trigger to remind the Right Deltoids muscle of its direction.

Love your thing about Swingers leaving the right elbow in place.

I stole it from Homer. I can't take credit. This is the Fun Part about Geometry and Alignments. One Alignment LOOKS different when in a different Location.

Swingers need to Fan the Right Forearm with a Stationary Elbow to have it become "Angled-to-the-right-Aligned" (Spayed to the Right) to their Shoulders when the Right Elbow begins to raise away from their side at Start-up. This Alignment, at the Top of their Swings, Locates their Elbows pointing more Downward to be Directly behind and support the Secondary Lever (Right Forearm more up and down). Hitters, on the other hand, have Right Elbows that begin to raise when the Right Forearm is perpendicular to their shoulders so that at the Top of the Swing, their Elbows point Backwards Slightly (Right Forearm at a 45 degree Angle) and their #3 Pressure point can Support the Primary Lever.

One day I was playing with these alignments after viewing a Yoda video where he Tilts the "Wedges" at the Top of the Swing, to demonstrate Hitters Elbow Location -vs- Swingers Elbow Location. It eventually dawned on me that these alignments are so different that something must be causing them. I Traced these Alignments back to the Angle of the Right Forearm at the Time when the Right Elbow Leaves and Raises from the Side during Start-up.

It was an INVALUABLE lesson because I learned that with a Shoulder, or Torso Turn Take-away, the Golfer needs to manipulate the Elbow to Locate these Alignments and at best, it could only be guesswork. It's also extra motion and bla, bla, bla. Th Extensor Action Take-away from correctly Set Up Hitters and Swingers, precisely establishes these Alignments at the End of Start-up. In other words, these are the same Alignments of the Power Package at the End of Start-up BEING SEEN in a different Location.

Are you saying Hitters are Tortured? How rude. This was a surprise for me too when I first heard it. The Green Guy may have to wade in here but it does reconcile some conflicting concepts for me. Like how does the grip end stay in front of the body in start up etc. You know the grip end in the belly button drill vs a quick move of the left arm across the chest like in an actively fanning right arm in startup with a quiet pivot. With the Pivot taking care of the Fanning the Right arm need only do the pickup, bending. Bottom line is you dont want to freeze your pivot in startup, Hitting or Swinging.

Not that they are Tortured, but "being Tortured" The Green man can put his feet up and relax, he's going to have bigger fish to fry this weekend. Get the Suitcase.

The "McDonald" Myth and Pivot Controlled Hands. The Grip End does not Point to the Belt Buckle during Start-up. It May appear to point to that location for a Swinger with a Flat Right Wrist at Take-away, until the Bending of the Right Wrist. But thats only a visual "It Looks Like". McDonald and others converted that into a "this is what you should do", rather than, "if you do this, it will look like you did this". It would be nice if the Clubshaft would Point To The Baseline and simultaneously remain on your desired Angle of Inclination.

The Clubshaft has an important Alignment because it is part of the Primary Lever. The "Left Arm Flying Wedge". The Clubshaft is part of the Power Package and Plane of motion and the #3 Pressure Point must reconcile the Power Package Alignments with the Plane-Line. Therefore, it functions even during a Non-Pivot Stroke, say a 20 yard pitch shot.

Thanks for this insight. But how can they move Down, not Out when traveling on an inclined plane?

I'm glad you asked. The "Force" is Downward. The Power Package can Only Move Up and Down. The Pivot moves Out and In. Reconciling them, is the Job #1 of the Hands while Tracing the Baseline of the Inclined Plane. I'm unsure whether downward is On-Plane or Vertical drop. My brain is tired.

I'm pretty sure it is for Hitters using Single Wrist Action Throughout 10-18-C #3, but I'm not sure for 10-18-C #2. I'm not Sure for Swingers if Down means Vertical or On-Plane. For Non-Pivot Strokes, it's definitely an On-Plane Down, not Vertical Drop.

POWER PACKAGE DRILL:

1. Clasp Your Hands in front of you at Shoulder Level.
2. Bend your right arm a few inches.
3. Lock both elbows in-place so that the Arm alignments stay unchanged as you move the Power Package Up and Down from the Shoulder Joints without changing Elbow Bend. Hands and Elbows and arms move up and down in Unison. Look how far the Right Elbow can Travel. It can get as high as your right Shoulder and all the way down to your right hip. That is Downstroke Hand Acceleration Power Package Travel.
4. NOW, move your hands left and Right by unbending and bending the right Elbow. That is Clubhead Acceleration and is the Release Travel of the Power Package. Left Arm Blast Off for Swingers or Right Triceps Thrust for Hitters. GET THIS: When the Power Package is fully Lowered, it's in the Release Zone. Automatically, the Right Arm begins to straighten or the Left Arm moves away from the chest, depending on your point of view. Hitting the "Bottom" of the Power Package Travel is what Triggers the Automatic Release.
5. Left and Right causes the Release.
6. Up and Down does not cause "Release".

Now. Education..........THIS IS WHAT 99% of all Golfers do, including Slicer Mcgolf.

1. Clasp your Hands.
2. Bend your right elbow and place it at your right side. (Most Golfers Right Elbows never leave their right Side)
3. Keep your right elbow stationary and Unbend and bend your Right Elbow to raise and lower your left arm.
4. As you Bend up and down, start pulling your left arm leftward on the Downward unbending motion and your hands will travel from Upper right to Lower Left.
5. What does that do for you? NOTHING, Instantaneous Release with No Acceleration. Except, it will make you Flatten your Right Wrist Through Impact to reach the ball.

[mb6606]

The #4 Accumulator (Left Arm) is carried across the Chest during the Backstroke (to about 45 degrees). It is now Accumulated. It is Stored in this position, along with the Power Package. The Downstroke Delivers the #4 Accumulator to the Release position.

During Delivery, The Left Arm moves Down the Chest together with the Power Package, but it does not move away from the Chest (Which triggers it's Release). As the Shoulders continue their Rotation and become open to the Target, the Hands become in-line with the Ball. Then the Left Arm will Blast off the Chest; Release. The In-line position of the Left Arm, #4 Accumulator, is when both Arms are Straight.

Seems like the pivot and the left side have to do a lot of the work no - not just the right?

[Daryl]

Seems like the pivot and the left side have to do a lot of the work no - not just the right?

True. But think in terms of "Power Package" vs. "Pivot" rather that Left vs. Right.

[O.B.Left]

It makes sense that Luke and others Hitters bump to the Right because it's the precise path that an Extensor Action Take-away moves their Left Hand. By having their Hands Forward Pressed, Extensor Action Force moves them Straight to the Right (parallel) with the Plane-Line which creates the "Sawing" motion of the Right Elbow. So, for Hitters, bumping the Hip is with-in their Alignment 'protocol' and may be a very correct Start-Up Trigger to remind the Right Deltoids muscle of its direction.



I stole it from Homer. I can't take credit. This is the Fun Part about Geometry and Alignments. One Alignment LOOKS different when in a different Location.

Swingers need to Fan the Right Forearm with a Stationary Elbow to have it become "Angled-to-the-right-Aligned" (Spayed to the Right) to their Shoulders when the Right Elbow begins to raise away from their side at Start-up. This Alignment, at the Top of their Swings, Locates their Elbows pointing more Downward to be Directly behind and support the Secondary Lever (Right Forearm more up and down). Hitters, on the other hand, have Right Elbows that begin to raise when the Right Forearm is perpendicular to their shoulders so that at the Top of the Swing, their Elbows point Backwards Slightly (Right Forearm at a 45 degree Angle) and their #3 Pressure point can Support the Primary Lever.

One day I was playing with these alignments after viewing a Yoda video where he Tilts the "Wedges" at the Top of the Swing, to demonstrate Hitters Elbow Location -vs- Swingers Elbow Location. It eventually dawned on me that these alignments are so different that something must be causing them. I Traced these Alignments back to the Angle of the Right Forearm at the Time when the Right Elbow Leaves and Raises from the Side during Start-up.

It was an INVALUABLE lesson because I learned that with a Shoulder, or Torso Turn Take-away, the Golfer needs to manipulate the Elbow to Locate these Alignments and at best, it could only be guesswork. It's also extra motion and bla, bla, bla. Th Extensor Action Take-away from correctly Set Up Hitters and Swingers, precisely establishes these Alignments at the End of Start-up. In other words, these are the same Alignments of the Power Package at the End of Start-up BEING SEEN in a different Location.






Not that they are Tortured, but "being Tortured" The Green man can put his feet up and relax, he's going to have bigger fish to fry this weekend. Get the Suitcase.

The "McDonald" Myth and Pivot Controlled Hands. The Grip End does not Point to the Belt Buckle during Start-up. It May appear to point to that location for a Swinger with a Flat Right Wrist at Take-away, until the Bending of the Right Wrist. But thats only a visual "It Looks Like". McDonald and others converted that into a "this is what you should do", rather than, "if you do this, it will look like you did this". It would be nice if the Clubshaft would Point To The Baseline and simultaneously remain on your desired Angle of Inclination.

The Clubshaft has an important Alignment because it is part of the Primary Lever. The "Left Arm Flying Wedge". The Clubshaft is part of the Power Package and Plane of motion and the #3 Pressure Point must reconcile the Power Package Alignments with the Plane-Line. Therefore, it functions even during a Non-Pivot Stroke, say a 20 yard pitch shot.




I'm glad you asked. The "Force" is Downward. The Power Package can Only Move Up and Down. The Pivot moves Out and In. Reconciling them, is the Job #1 of the Hands while Tracing the Baseline of the Inclined Plane. I'm unsure whether downward is On-Plane or Vertical drop. My brain is tired.

I'm pretty sure it is for Hitters using Single Wrist Action Throughout 10-18-C #3, but I'm not sure for 10-18-C #2. I'm not Sure for Swingers if Down means Vertical or On-Plane. For Non-Pivot Strokes, it's definitely an On-Plane Down, not Vertical Drop.

POWER PACKAGE DRILL:

1. Clasp Your Hands in front of you at Shoulder Level.
2. Bend your right arm a few inches.
3. Lock both elbows in-place so that the Arm alignments stay unchanged as you move the Power Package Up and Down from the Shoulder Joints without changing Elbow Bend. Hands and Elbows and arms move up and down in Unison. Look how far the Right Elbow can Travel. It can get as high as your right Shoulder and all the way down to your right hip. That is Downstroke Hand Acceleration Power Package Travel.
4. NOW, move your hands left and Right by unbending and bending the right Elbow. That is Clubhead Acceleration and is the Release Travel of the Power Package. Left Arm Blast Off for Swingers or Right Triceps Thrust for Hitters. GET THIS: When the Power Package is fully Lowered, it's in the Release Zone. Automatically, the Right Arm begins to straighten or the Left Arm moves away from the chest, depending on your point of view. Hitting the "Bottom" of the Power Package Travel is what Triggers the Automatic Release.
5. Left and Right causes the Release.
6. Up and Down does not cause "Release".

Now. Education..........THIS IS WHAT 99% of all Golfers do, including Slicer Mcgolf.

1. Clasp your Hands.
2. Bend your right elbow and place it at your right side. (Most Golfers Right Elbows never leave their right Side)
3. Keep your right elbow stationary and Unbend and bend your Right Elbow to raise and lower your left arm.
4. As you Bend up and down, start pulling your left arm leftward on the Downward unbending motion and your hands will travel from Upper right to Lower Left.
5. What does that do for you? NOTHING, Instantaneous Release with No Acceleration. Except, it will make you Flatten your Right Wrist Through Impact to reach the ball.

Some quick notes, got to get to work.

-Again, your view of hitting seems limited to an elbow saw, linear, Push Basic type takeaway. Please consider Punch Elbow, 10-3-A, The first listed Major Basic Stroke, Homers recommendation in 12-1-0 The Basic Pattern for Hitting. Or is this another sneak attack against hitters? Are you trying to get all hitters to elbow saw , Push Basic when at full power. Maybe when putting or in Basic but please stop saying "saw". Are you One Planeing us? Hardy? Hitters Fan too, come on. Why cant we all just get along.

-So divergent forces netting out when going down. Power package goes down, pivot goes out. Cool. Matches my idea of the backswing.........power package goes up, pivot turns back. Given proper Tracing you are in business. Hand to Pivot.

-McDonald "myth" stings a bit. As for it being Pivot controlled Hands, I disagree. It is all about Motion, the pivot should not be frozen. To do this is no different than doing it in normal everyday life. Spend a day not pivoting and tell me how your back feels, even if doing the most simple of human movements. The use of the pivot to motivate the hands is done subconsciously in just about every motion we make that involves turning. AND IT DOESNT PRECLUDE THE HANDS FROM BEING IN CONTROL. Per Homer, the Hands are not educated until they control the Pivot. This does not imply that the pivot is frozen or second sequentially in Startup. Where does he say the Hands must proceed the Pivot in startup for it to be Hands to Pivot? Put a brace around your back and see what happens , how awkward your motions are. I sugest that your pre cleared Right Hip is a compensation for this misconception on your part. You Sir have pre moved your Pivot. By your logic this would make YOU Pivot to Hands my friend. I say this in jest of course having great admiration for your action.

Late for work now, Geez D!

[Daryl]

-Again, your view of hitting seems limited to an elbow saw, linear, Push Basic type takeaway.

It ain't so. Saw + Fanning.

-McDonald "myth" stings a bit. As for it being Pivot controlled Hands, I disagree. It is all about Motion, the pivot should not be frozen. To do this is no different than doing it in normal everyday life. Spend a day not pivoting and tell me how your back feels, even if doing the most simple of human movements. The use of the pivot to motivate the hands is done subconsciously in just about every motion we make that involves turning. AND IT DOESNT PRECLUDE THE HANDS FROM BEING IN CONTROL. Per Homer, the Hands are not educated until they control the Pivot.

I guess the easiest way to put this to rest: The hands control where the body goes, or else the Body controls where the hands go.

[O.B.Left]

It ain't so. Saw + Fanning.

How bout "Fan + Bend"?

[O.B.Left]

I guess the easiest way to put this to rest: The hands control where the body goes, or else the Body controls where the hands go.

How bout the brain controls where the Hands go. And the brain controls where the Pivot goes in accordance with the requirements of the Hands. And they dont go the same way necessarily.


Come on, we humans can do this. I bet you can do a mean right arm pickup while you drink a beer and turn your body, say to change channels on your TV.

[golfbulldog]

How bout the brain controls where the Hands go. And the brain controls where the Pivot goes in accordance with the requirements of the Hands. And they dont go the same way necessarily.


Come on, we humans can do this. I bet you can do a mean right arm pickup while you drink a beer and turn your body, say to change channels on your TV.

For me balance is the link...the brain moves arms so that forces are aligned (experienced in the hands) for the task...and your brain also makes sure your pivot is in an optimum position to apply the aligned force sensations and stay in balance...staying in balance is all force management.

The key to alignment is force sensation...

To some extent the right forearm move, for me, takes some priority away from force sensation (my brain struggles to prioritise 2 sensations)...but when done properly it allows you to feel the force in your hands.

The mechanics of right forearm alignment does mean that the shoulder turn seems to be automatic and has automatically converted me to a flat shoulder turn (from rotated)...as Daryl predicts I think.