That first frame looks like a TSP to my eyes. Like his Right Shoulder is taking the Hands and clubshaft down "a" TSP. A steep one though, sort of like Jacks. Nothing like Hogan's flattish TSP angle.
The second frame when you look at the shaft angle it is super steep. No longer pointing at the Turned Shoulder position almost Turning Shoulder. But there's some shaft droop there so if you drew a line from the sweetspot to the #3 pp then maybe the Sweetspot Plane, the real Plane so to speak, is pointing more towards the Turned position of the Right Shoulder. Its a stretch I know....either that or he's shifted up to higher plane from the TSP.
Assuming he didnt shift up we're looking at a Single shift, no shift on the plane angle from Top to impact. Elbow then TSP at Top then down the TSP .......something Homer would have preferred to a Double Shift actually.......in the later editions....
You know the crazy thing is that Homer changed his ideas about the Elbow Plane as the editions progressed but to my mind didnt change some of the surrounding references to Elbow Plane. You know how he talks about starting the club back on the shaft and elbow plane...........in the audio tapes he throws that one out the window. Forget the shaft plane in startup actually you could say forget about the shaft laying on the inclined plane even.....though its part of 1-L ......he's talking clubhead plane (as opposed to shaft or LCOG) moving on the TSP up and down , Zero Shift. Dont hear about that too much...... He prioritized things with not shifting ranking higher than any benefit to the Elbow Plane or the Shaft laying flat on the Inclined Plane. As I hear him anyways. Not that you dont options of course , lots and lots of them. Trillions of useful options, multiple shifts included.
Talk to me . . . . Best I could do fast on pulling it together . . .
How does this part work . . .
externally rotated right shoulder , rounding off somewhat while his left side bend tilts more into the ball . Also note how its his pivot which is regaining flexion whilst rotating that shifts the left arm out a bit and then down, rather than launchpad and right shoulder pushing down on the left arm
Interesting language you're using there. Is that a dialect of TGM? Not sure I follow you , interesting stuff though , really. Im interested in what it is that drops the left arm down. You saying there's something in the pivot that drops the arms? As opposed to a vertical drop of the hands plain and simple. I dunno.
But I gotta say (again) , the left arm isnt on the inclined plane given any #3 angle so why would you want the right shoulder pushing the left arm down? Down to where? Somewhere above the ball? Anywhere in particular? Why not pushing the Power Package or the Hands or the #3 or the LCOG?
If you draw a line from the ball through the #3 pp I think you'll see Hogan as having his right shoulder on the same plane angle at Top and in the second photo , Startdown. Then in the third photo he's already in to release ......dont look at his left wrist cock look at his lengthening right arm........ its started .....4, 1, 2, 3 right? And since he's dropped to a lower plane the Hands are on a lower plane than the original TSP and the Right Shoulder has stopped moving towards the ball gone higher than the original TSP.
Or maybe Ive had too much egg nog? The camera angle is off there too but Ive seen Hogan;s hands lower than the TSP really early in a bunch of photos. Im thinking higher than TSP is way worse , than lower. WAY.
Here's a similar photo that shows the ball for any of you guys who know how to draw lines. A line from ball to #3pp will have the left arm above it. A line from right shoulder to left arm will extend out way above the ball no? I dunno.
have nothing to contribute other than thanking you lot.
I love it when you guys start 'chewing the cud'.
All of it done with respect too, never (or rarely) a cross word. Mature posters on LBG!
had to get some christmas smilies in too!
Don't we normally have a christmas yoda at this time of year?
__________________ The student senses his teacher’s steadfast belief and quiet resolve: “This is doable. It is doable by you. The pathway is there. All you need is determination and time.” And together, they make it happen.
All you guys should just all get together with your dowels, driveway markers and strings somewhere and just work it all out and report back to us. It is amazing that after all these years on the forum we haven't moved foward on this issue have we? Reminds me of business meetings. Therefore it is time to form and have a committee meeting on this. Although in the past it was fun to experiment with different stuff it just doesn't make me a better golfer. all I want now is to select one way, one pattern that will do it for me. Something that I know if I can master and get consistent with, l good golf will result. Once you guys have reached a consensus then this opinion could be filed as permanent, something you can make book on and left alone.. . then on to other issues.
All you guys should just all get together with your dowels, driveway markers and strings somewhere and just work it all out and report back to us. It is amazing that after all these years on the forum we haven't moved foward on this issue have we? Reminds me of business meetings. Therefore it is time to form and have a committee meeting on this. Although in the past it was fun to experiment with different stuff it just doesn't make me a better golfer. all I want now is to select one way, one pattern that will do it for me. Something that I know if I can master and get consistent with, l good golf will result. Once you guys have reached a consensus then this opinion could be filed as permanent, something you can make book on and left alone.. . then on to other issues.
Isn't The Golfing Machine all about options and preferences? I think after the Imperatives, and for some the Essentials, everything is up for discussion and interpretation. We may never come to a consensus on everything else, and there's no problem with that IMHO.
Some will always prefer Hogan, some Snead, some Furyk, some Stack & Tilt... preferences are in a continual state of change as is the interpretation of science behind the physics of the golf swing... Fortunately, the Geometry is stable.
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
Speaking of sniffing . . . how's offspring treating y'all? Tried to tell you man!!!!
Talk to me about this Hogan stuff . . . . Not really worried about the hitting/swinging part but what about the right shoulder staying on top of the left arm? Junk? Maybe? or don't matter?
I think it is very important that the right shoulder stays on top of something. Just not sure that it's exactly the right arm. I think it has more to do with the mass that is being moved. Which is right arm, clubshaft & clubhead. I think Hogan traps the primary assembly lever under the plane of his rotating shoulder.
It might also be interesting to look at pp#3 orientation. Difficult to spot on film but I wouldn't be surprised if pp#3 is more on the top of the shaft than with typical drive loading - and for longer than you expect with a swingers pp#3 rotation. As long as you keep pp#3 on top of things you can power a horizontal hinge.
If Hogan pulls hard with his left side, PP#2 will be directed straight towards his left shoulder socket. If pp# 1 & pp#3 "only" thrust on plane, there is no force that prevents the hands from being pulled above the inclined plane. And centrifugal force will probably do more of the same.
The combined pressure + centrifugal force will create a plane shift upwards and towards steeper.
So I am guessing here; but perhaps Mr Hogan has pp#3 partly on top of the shaft, and maybe his flat right shoulder turn that happens far above the hand path makes this possible.
I think that 12 Pc. wants to know if a level-ish Downstroke shoulder turn has a greater influence on the player "going left" to stay On-Plane after Impact more than something else. In other words, he is wondering if an On-Plane Downstroke Right shoulder contributes to "Swinging out to Right Field"; defined as the Clubhead and Shaft rising above Plane after Impact.
That...is sooo Pivot Controlled Hands.
Although a Flat Right Shoulder Downstroke rotation WILL cause the Hands to "fire Left" after Impact, it does so at the expense of needing compensations for other critical Alignments.
Such As: Needing, a Sweep or Random Sweep Release to FORCE the Right Forearm back to its Impact Fix Angle of Approach BEFORE the Right Shoulder FORCES the Right Forearm to become to high at Impact which is a Hackers over the Top move. Certainly this can be adjusted to eventually become a fine Golf Swing.
But really now; do we need another compensation? Rather than forcing the Hands and Right Forearm to comply with an off-Plane Right Shoulder, it makes more sense if we train the Right Shoulder comply and assist in achieving the critical Right Forearm Impact Alignment?
The Club won't swing above plane if the Player has "Rhythm". Hinging....through the Impact Interval will allow the Clubhead and Shaft to remain On-Plane until the Finish Swivel.
Hinging is easy to perform on the Elbow Plane (because of the large pulley). If you want to try something a bit more challenging, then use the TSP (because of the infinitesimally small Pulley when using a Snap Release).
Thanks for setting the course D. Im just saying that a levelish shoulder turn as you put it.........makes the Right Shoulder not aligned to the base of the Plane in Startdown where it's dragging the Power Package .... You'd need a compensation of some sort to prevent the Sweetspot from following the above plane shoulder turn for that period. The period of Shoulder Acceleration.
In terms of when you should drop to a lower plane assuming you are going to: Id say the earlier the better. You want to give yourself as much time as possible on the Plane your going to make contact on. Hogan was "flat" at Top then dropped early.....hence the hands or left arm if you prefer under the right shoulder. Nice stuff. And not that much of a shift in terms of degrees.
It is amazing that after all these years on the forum we haven't moved foward on this issue have we? Reminds me of business meetings. .....
Therefore it is time to form and have a committee meeting on this. Although in the past it was fun to experiment with different stuff it just doesn't make me a better golfer. all I want now is to select one way, one pattern that will do it for me.
Hey David.
Like Kev said you've got options but that said Homer did appear to have had a clear preference for the mechanical advantage of the TSP and therefore the Standard Shoulder Turn and that's what Lynn teaches I believe. Double or Single Shift Id guess with Single being the most common. Single if I had to pick one being the preferred in that its the simplest. Its a smogestboard of usable components but Homer had his preferences Id say .... Hands to Pivot and swinging the Hands not the Clubhead etc etc.
Its all here for the taking. Heres something I found quickly for you....let me keep on looking for more. Pt 2 is a must ....Pivot Lag, Taking out the Slack etc etc. All trained and ingrained with Startdown Waggles on the TSP.
Like Kev said you've got options but that said Homer did appear to have had a clear preference for the mechanical advantage of the TSP and therefore the Standard Shoulder Turn and that's what Lynn teaches I believe. Double or Single Shift Id guess with Single being the most common. With a doff of the cap to Single , I would say in that its the simplest...... and Hands to Pivot and swinging the Hands not the Clubhead etc etc.
Its all here for the taking. Heres something I found quickly for you....let me keep on looking for more. Pt 2 is a must ....Pivot Lag, Taking out the Slack etc etc. All trained and ingrained with Startdown Waggles on the TSP.
Regards
Ob
Good stuff guys!
Kevin
__________________
I could be wrong. I have been before, and will be again.
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