I just read your post and didn't catch that 5 to 10 degree thing . . . . My question is where? On the backstroke? Downstroke? Another thing would be what plane angle are we talking about?
First let me clarify my definite student status on this. But this is my understanding.
The 5 to 10 degrees refers to the downswing. What is being referred to is that when the forces created against the ground at the beginning of the downswing cause the hips to start turning back they actually only need to turn a few degrees to begin the kinetic link. They will then stop, and even counter torque - ie reverse direction momentarily - which will pass the momentum created up to the torso. This force is transferred through the stretch created along the muscles of the torso from the left hip (rh golfers) to the right shoulder. These muscles stretch and then fire (this is a short stretch cycle) creating rotational speed in the torso and shoulders.
Some things that have helped my to understand this:
Think of Short Stretch Cycles in regard to jumping as high as you can. First you dip down a few inches and then explode upward. This is a SSC. If you drop and pause you lose that energy. If you drop down as low as your flexibility will allow you wont jump nearly as high. Yet in much golf instruction I see pausing and going close to or even to your max flexibility. Biomechanically these don't create the best conditions to create maximum speed in balance.
The ground forces can easily be understood if you stand on a chair that turns and try and swing a club. These forces are what actually drives your hips around. They are the equal and opposite reaction. Similarly if you move this principle up the chain the equal and opposite reaction when you slow your hips after they've moved back at the start of the downswing will be for your torso to rotate (because your feet are still gripping the ground so the force cannot go that way. Similarly when you slow your shoulders (as Bio says, as they come back into alignment with your hips) that momentum will be passed through your shoulder joint into your arms. Finally your arms will slow through the impact zone and all that energy will be released into the clubshaft which will accelarate massively.
None of these things can be controlled consciously. Try and throw a ball consciously, maybe by consciously managing how and when your hips turn back on the downswing. I bet you don't throw it that well. But there are exercises we can do to improve these actions. In my case some of them are very golf like involving a club and impact bag. But they are never an actual golf swing and I have to be told time and again not to try and "do" these exercises at the course! )
I am writing as an interested amateur. Bio is the expert. But perhaps coming from an amateur as opposed to a technical background I can make this stuff a little more comprehensible to the other amateurs out there!
First let me clarify my definite student status on this. But this is my understanding.
The 5 to 10 degrees refers to the downswing. What is being referred to is that when the forces created against the ground at the beginning of the downswing cause the hips to start turning back they actually only need to turn a few degrees to begin the kinetic link. They will then stop, and even counter torque - ie reverse direction momentarily - which will pass the momentum created up to the torso. This force is transferred through the stretch created along the muscles of the torso from the left hip (rh golfers) to the right shoulder. These muscles stretch and then fire (this is a short stretch cycle) creating rotational speed in the torso and shoulders.
Some things that have helped my to understand this:
Think of Short Stretch Cycles in regard to jumping as high as you can. First you dip down a few inches and then explode upward. This is a SSC. If you drop and pause you lose that energy. If you drop down as low as your flexibility will allow you wont jump nearly as high. Yet in much golf instruction I see pausing and going close to or even to your max flexibility. Biomechanically these don't create the best conditions to create maximum speed in balance.
The ground forces can easily be understood if you stand on a chair that turns and try and swing a club. These forces are what actually drives your hips around. They are the equal and opposite reaction. Similarly if you move this principle up the chain the equal and opposite reaction when you slow your hips after they've moved back at the start of the downswing will be for your torso to rotate (because your feet are still gripping the ground so the force cannot go that way. Similarly when you slow your shoulders (as Bio says, as they come back into alignment with your hips) that momentum will be passed through your shoulder joint into your arms. Finally your arms will slow through the impact zone and all that energy will be released into the clubshaft which will accelarate massively.
None of these things can be controlled consciously. Try and throw a ball consciously, maybe by consciously managing how and when your hips turn back on the downswing. I bet you don't throw it that well. But there are exercises we can do to improve these actions. In my case some of them are very golf like involving a club and impact bag. But they are never an actual golf swing and I have to be told time and again not to try and "do" these exercises at the course! )
I am writing as an interested amateur. Bio is the expert. But perhaps coming from an amateur as opposed to a technical background I can make this stuff a little more comprehensible to the other amateurs out there!
Very nice . . . thanks . . . . So question WHEN do you jump from the top? Start down? Impact? And how would you describe the jump? Straight up? To the left? Also . . . . How would you jump AND and keep the proper trajectory of the right shoulder and not get the club moving off plane?
Got any descriptions of the exercises or is that double top secret stuff?
Very nice . . . thanks . . . . So question WHEN do you jump from the top? Start down? Impact? And how would you describe the jump? Straight up? To the left? Also . . . . How would you jump AND and keep the proper trajectory of the right shoulder and not get the club moving off plane?
Got any descriptions of the exercises or is that double top secret stuff?
Thanks . . . nice thread going here.
Ummm ... not sure if you're being funny or if I'm completely missing the point!?! You don't jump in a golf swing. I was using what your leg muscles do when you do a standing leap as an example of an SSC. It's not an SSC that you would actually involve in your golf swing!
As I understand it the SSCs that you activate in your golf swing are across the front of your torso and in the back of your left shoulder (and maybe in front of your right shoulder). There may be others that I don't know about (there is a lot that I don't know about!) All of the Short Stretch Cycles happen in the downswing only, as best I understand it. They start from when your centre of mass starts to move back to the left, which I suspect is best to happen before your arms complete their backswing.
So the SSCs themselves. The torso is activated when your hips rotate back to the left (right if you're a lefty). The hips move before the torso/shoulders which creates "separation" and stretches the muscles as they run from your right shoulder to your left hip. In a proper movement pattern your hips would only need to move a few degrees (so a 10 degree movement would see your hips turn one thirty-sixth of the total 360 degree circle). They hips should then stop (this is one of those things that you can never do consciously and so needs to be trained). This would create the separation and stretch. The muscles across your torso would then fire (this is the short stretch cycle in action). They would shorten which causes your torso and shoulders to turn rapidly around your fairly stable spine.
As you can imagine the turning of your shoulders creates another strech in the muscles at the back of your left shoulder. This is because the arm and club will not immediately move at the same speed as the shoulders (in the same way the shoulders did not immediately move at the same time at the hips). If you think about it this is a process of creating and releasing lag. Lag between the hips and shoulders. Then lag between the shoulder and arms. Then lag between the arms and clubshaft. This is good TGM!
So now we have a stretch at the back of the left shoulder. Proper biomechanics mean that these muscles quickly fire in another SSC and accelarate the arm, dragging the club along for the ride.
The final piece is when the hands stop around the bottom of their arc. This releases the clubshaft and all that lovely built up lag into the back of the ball, sending it flying long and straight down the fairway. Beautiful!
The reengagement of your hips and momentum will then pull your whole body around to the finish.
I could describe the exercises I do but Bio has advised me against it. The thing is that there are exercises to help you if your hips turn too far without stopping. And there are exercises to help you if your hips don't turn enough before stopping. I don't know exactly what mine do! And without screening you cannot know what exercises you need. You get a personally developed program - I know because I am referred to in the video I got by name!
So now we have a stretch at the back of the left shoulder. Proper biomechanics mean that these muscles quickly fire in another SSC and accelarate the arm, dragging the club along for the ride.
The final piece is when the hands stop around the bottom of their arc. This releases the clubshaft and all that lovely built up lag into the back of the ball, sending it flying long and straight down the fairway. Beautiful!
The reengagement of your hips and momentum will then pull your whole body around to the finish.
If I stop my hands sooner, will the Club have more time to pick up greater speed?
Hey there Weetbix, loving this thread. I've been thorough the screening process myself and have started my PST's. For me this is the way to go. I had been reading up on the mechanics and had lessons but still could not get the idea of putting my swing together. I'd have good days but couldn't work out why the bad ones were so bad. With Bioengine I've learned how the whole thing goes together and have a solid set of PST's that are in a specific order to train my body to perform this kinetic link with no thoughts getting in the way. I'm striking the ball more consistently than ever.
It was quite amazing what I learned about my swing from the screening too and just how out of whack it was, I was making all sorts of compensations that were causing dire shots.
I was skeptical at first but keen enough about golf to try, I certainly made the right choice and highly recommend this process to anyone who wants to play better golf.
your arms decelerating isn't something you physically try and do in the golf swing, If you try to achieve arm deceleration physically you will hit the ball fat.
The arms slow down they don't actually come to a complete stop.
Each body segment accelerates and decelerates. This must occur for the law of conservation to work.The reason for deceleration of each segment is so speed can be transferred to the next body segment.
In order for this to work you effectively you need 6-M-1 (kinetic link) conservation of momentum and Muscular loading.
If you have all these combinations each body segment will accelerate and decelerate and pass speed to next segment.
(This happen naturally) This continues up through your kinetic Link (6-M-1). Hips,upper body,arms,until distal end speed is transferred to the club.
This all happens naturally when you have trained your body how to create conservation of momentum and muscular loading.
These events you can apply physically by going to the practice fairway grinding balls.
Regarding the SSC this is complicated topic to speak about and for people to understand SSC and muscular loading I would need to write a 50 page essay.There's mountains of information you need to learn, to develop an understanding how this works in the golf swing.
Weetbix.
What do you mean by this below????
Absolutely. Sooner the better. Somewhere around you right ear would work best for you I suspect
Not sure what you mean here ???
Last edited by bioengine : 08-07-2009 at 10:50 PM.
I agree with much of this but not that deceleration is needed to transfer momentum to the next acceleration stage.
I feel that my own Pivot supplies all of the Work. I also feel that the work that the Pivot provides is separate but synchronized with the Downstroke Acceleration sequence of my Power Package.
My Pivot components don't slow or stop and are sequenced to provide continuous motion and power to the Swing. My Hips lead and power the Shoulders throughout the Downstroke. My Shoulders trail my hips at least until the Finish Swivel.
Foot, knee and Hip Actions are sequenced. Keep in mind that Foot loading is different for Straight and Circle Delivery Paths. So, the Pivot will look different, sequence differently and provide different work. Foot loading is vastly important. Without sensing and sequencing the Ground pressures through my feet and allowing my feet to increase and decrease these pressures, It's difficult to move the Hips very far and it's not possible for the Hips to drive the shoulders through Impact and beyond. Ground Pressures are very powerful and yet can be very sensitive and delicate around the greens. The Sequence doesn't change but the pressures and spacing and pacing of the components changes to fit the shot at hand. It's almost unconscious.
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