Regarding the hips and shoulders being open the same amount at impact I have a ques. Does this then mean that the hips need to turn more in the back swing than x-factor type instruction tells us? Or are the shoulders and hips matching up at impact as a result of the shoulders catching up to the hips?
On the back swing separation or x factor is a myth and not important, all that matter is separation between the hips and upperbody is created on the downswing.
The biggest mistake the X- factor boys made is they don't understand how the body functions.
What they don't understand is why you create separation between the hips and upper body on the downswing. And how you achieve this either.
It's not important to how much your turn your hips in relation to your upper body.The reason you create separation is to elongate the muscles group from the hips to upperbody. The elongation stretches the muscle groups. This also releases a chemical energy which makes the muscles fire. To activate this you only initially need to turn the hips 5 to 10 degrees. Important, once you created separation the lower body must stabilize, so you can you fire the upper body straight away.
If you maintain separation for two long the chemical energy turns into heat. It must be loaded and fired straight away or you lose loading and firing of the muscles.
Th Mistake the x-factors boys made is they don't understand this. They tell you you turn your hips as far left as possible lagging the upper body as long as possible.Ok you have the stretch effect. But the chemical energy has turned to heat, cause you held the stretch to long and haven't loaded and fired your muscles straight away, Now you have lost the chemical energy from holding the stretch to long, the muscles can't load and fire. You have lost the loading and firing of the muscles ,the engines which drive conservation of momentum.
Other two holes with their theory is that they don't understand the lower body must stabilize at impact,this allow you to load and fire your muscles in the upper body. also the lower body stabilizing transfer speed the hips have created to the upper body.(conservation of momentum).
So with their theory you have already lost conservation of momentum and you lost your engine which creates speed loading and firing of the muscles.
The last one is they don't realize they are injuring people. when the upper body is lagged behind and the hips are turned left to much this puts huge rotation torque on the spine. This puts huge forces on the spine and cause lower back injuries.
They don't understand the limitations spine.
It's like Rosey at TPI he's a chiro that's it, he has no biomechanics background, He creates his theories off his chiro background.
Kinematic sequence. Mean to ignore the laws of motion.
So he doesn't understand the laws of human motion and how the body functions or moves and the physics behind it all.
x-factor boys are coming from a mechanics background(golf coaches) they don't understand either the laws of human motion and how the body functions or moves and the physics behind it.
When ever reading up on biomechanics look at their background first.
Last edited by bioengine : 08-06-2009 at 06:55 AM.
I agree that the pivot is very important. Zone 1 is where people should start BUT you cannot feel # 3 PP (clubhead) , trace the plane line (shaft/sweetspot plane) as well as execute one of three hinge actions (club face)on command with the pivot. The pivot does all the heavy lifting the dumb brute if you will. The hands are the command post, and without the science of relationship (Geometry) a golfer will have nothing but a dumb brute pivot with moron mittens! Hell, before reading Chapter five of TGM I did not even know how to grip the club properly. I have played pretty good golf for 20 years now. No amount of physics can teach you to put your hands on the club correctly. I do not think a chasm exists between action and motion, as you seem to suggest. Designating a percentile participation score seems silly.
Okie,
One thing video can't measure is body segments speeds.
Ok there are three thing you need is 6-m-1, conservation of momentum and muscular loading for good physics.
People lose P3 due to arm deceleration as soon as the hands begin to slow down to early in the downswing and the club then is moving faster than the hands and you lose pressure against the shaft. So this is a physics problem not geometry problem.
You have a power leakage somewhere. The arms slow down when you lose conservation of momentum and muscular loading. This could even occurred as early as the from starting from the ground.
Most people pull on the handle and this creates a feeling of P3,
in reality they have poor ball compression and they are adding an external force to the system which is also creating arm deceleration and steering. They pull on the handle to stop an early release cause their arms are decelerating. So it boils down to again poor physics and a power leakage somewhere.
Ok if you have a good grip ,flat left wrist will happen naturally is you have good physics.When you arm sits natural down by your side your hand naturally is flat.
You can believe what you like that's fine, although when you understand how the body moves naturally you will soon understand you can achieve flat left wrist with good physics. If your setup is right and grip is right, good physics you will achieve flat left wrist.
Every athlete I have worked with say to me and they achieve good physics they can feel P1,P2,P3 and P4. Pressure aren't applied they are created and felt from good physics.
Your entitled to your beliefs thats fine, there your beliefs.
Although I have no beliefs or opinions this is what 20 years of measuring 10's of thousands of golf swing tell us. using laws of physics and newtons law and body physics.
I have recently started the exercises that BioMechanic teaches. He has also been good enough to answer my many questions. What has been a real eye opener for me is how I have been able to link what Bio has explained to me back to the many, many, many exercises and drills that I have read and watched and been told about over the years. But what he has explained to me doesn't just say "Do this" it is linked back to the basic physical, chemical and mechanical forces that create the results.
For example, why would he say that physics is 90% and geometry is only 10%? Well lets look at 3 fundamentals - FLW, lag and plane. Well if your physics start from the ground and follow the kinetic link up you will get a FLW - how can you not - all of the force is in front of the clubhead. And it is the lag that is generated that leads to a FLW. Certainly you need to obey some fundamental geometry in your set up. But you can more easily have perfect geometry and throw it all away with poor physics that have perfect physics and mess it up through poor geometry. In fact I am finding that my body is creating good geometry while I do the exercises because it I don't everything goes haywire when I hit the impact bag.
As for plane we are all aware of the many incredible golfers over the years whos only brush with plane is through the impact zone. If you work around a stable spine with shoulders and hips aligned you will maintain a really good plane.
And best of all the training makes this automatic. It trains your body to naturally create the right biomechanics. Then you can fine tune your alignments and set up to work the ball how you want.
Not to say that you can't hit a ball successfully with poor physics but good geometry. You can I'm sure. But better with good physics, surely?
GOLF IS NOT about Conservation of Momentum (angular or linear). The physicist that advised Dante and started misunderstanding GOT IT WRONG. Chochran and Stobbs GOT IT WRONG. The golfer is NOT a body subject to a CENTRAL FORCE.
The GOAL of a golfer is to get the club head properly oriented and moving on the optimal path with the highest possible velocity. When the mass of the club head meets the mass of the ball MOMENTUM is transfered from the club head to the ball. Everything else is bullcaca.
Interested in how the highest possible velocity is to be generated? And how do you ensure that you keep it on the optimal path? That is what biomechanics is about, I believe.
[quote=Weetbix;66612]Interested in how the highest possible velocity is to be generated? And how do you ensure that you keep it on the optimal path? That is what biomechanics is about, I believe.[/QUOTE
Where or how does one learn the exercises that Bioengine teaches???
Interested in how the highest possible velocity is to be generated? And how do you ensure that you keep it on the optimal path? That is what biomechanics is about, I believe.
Where or how does one learn the exercises that Bioengine teaches???
Ummmm, not sure about the rules here and what I can say, given commercial situation. Don't want to upset Lynn or the administrators. Maybe send Bioengine a PM.
Bucket,
We focus on two things with the hips ,creating hip rotational speed and stabilizing the lower body at impact.
The hips are designed to rotate perpendicular to the spine. In tennis, baseball and golf the hip rotation is the same.In all three sports the body have similar movement patterns and create body segments speeds the same. The kinetic link is the same. They all use 6-m-1 starting from the ground up, the two factors which drive 6-M-1 is Conservation of momentum and muscular loading.
6-m-1 is how the body wants to naturally move and naturally transfers speed from one segment to another and finally transfered to the club or bat.Muscular loading is the engine which creates the speed in each body segment.
We use all types of techniques to train movement patterns and depends on the data to what type of training we provide to each athlete. Every athlete is different and has different movement issues. So once we measure their movement patterns then we devise a program for that athlete.
We don't teach people on practice fairway or striking a golf ball.
We train them how to develop the right movement patterns and when they play golf this naturally happens. Once your body learns 6-m-1 this becomes automatic this is natural way the body wants to move and create speed.
I'm certainly interested in the excercises you use for sure. But I think one thing that we have to keep in mind in studying the similarities of the motions is the amount of precision required in the sport. I was talking to Eddie Cox a little about this. Sure there are some similarities in baseball with regards to the movement . . . HOWVER . . . in baseball you can hit a ball to left or right field and still hit a "good shot".
It would be nice to have a discussion of the exercises you use if it's appropriate with Lynn and you are willing to discuss. I would be very interested to learn more.
The Physics vs. Geometry argument has been a little out of Focus from the start.
Bold by Daryl:
Quote:
14-0 ……Geometry and Physics must be clearly differentiated. “Alignments” (relationships) are Geometry. “Work” (energy) is Physics (Chapter 2). Together the constitute “Mechanics” – structurally “fixed” geometry and physics (1-L). “Feel” is the body’s equivalent to structuring and its foundation is the Educated Hands (5-0).
Geometry being identical for every Pattern (1-L-20), it is your Computer’s basic program. All subsequent programming must agree with that basic. Hitting or Swinging and their special Mechanics dictate the individual’s basic TOTAL MOTION (12-1, 2, 3). So the primary programming routine for your Computer must maintain the Feel of your basic procedure.
Quote:
13-0 Stroke Component Variations are not all 100% interchangeable with the rest of their category by their very definition. Some are interchangeable only in an awkward way – or within certain limits – or for certain special purposes. Incompatible Components require correction, compensation or compassion.
Non-interchangeable Stroke Components must be properly compensated or eliminated. Incompatible components are faulty construction – mechanical improprieties, not legitimate variation.
For instance - Zero Hip Action is the Hip Action that is compatible with Zero Pivot. Again – Straight Line Power Package Delivery is not possible with the Shiftless Hip Turn. Again – Pull Stroke (Left Arm Swing) rules out the use of Radial Acceleration (10-19-A)…..
From Homers Notes:
Quote:
Educated Hands are those that can feel the resistance of motion -- CLUBHEAD lag. If the #3 pressure point is lost then "LAG" can not be sustained. The hands must control the pivot! Have the #3 pressure point completely replace the CLUBHEAD, take #3 to the ball. The heart and soul of G.O.L.F. Is developing a swing based on the hands. Teach Hinge Action without Body Motion.
Pivot components should ideally match Delivery Lines with either "ARC" or "ANGLE" of Approach procedures. Starting any other way leaves the Delivery Line to the right of the target line -- in other words, outside in.
I have enjoyed biomechanics posts but find them difficult to follow as written. I particular was interested in this post
What they don't understand is why you create separation between the hips and upper body on the downswing. And how you achieve this either.
It's not important to how much your turn your hips in relation to your upper body.The reason you create separation is to elongate the muscles group from the hips to upperbody. The elongation stretches the muscle groups. This also releases a chemical energy which makes the muscles fire. To activate this you only initially need to turn the hips 5 to 10 degrees. Important, once you created separation the lower body must stabilize, so you can you fire the upper body straight away.
If you maintain separation for two long the chemical energy turns into heat. It must be loaded and fired straight away or you lose loading and firing of the muscles.
I remember years ago it was suggested that those golfers who used too much right hand immobilize the right hand and arm by contracting and holding the muscles for 10 seconds several times before hitting. This used up the chemical and therefore the right side couldn't fire. a cure for hooking.
It would be nice if someone could summarize this thread succintly for an old guy like me. There have been many comments about biomechanics but not much meat shared. Is it priveleged information or available elsewhere for a fee.
I have enjoyed biomechanics posts but find them difficult to follow as written. I particular was interested in this post
What they don't understand is why you create separation between the hips and upper body on the downswing. And how you achieve this either.
It's not important to how much your turn your hips in relation to your upper body.The reason you create separation is to elongate the muscles group from the hips to upperbody. The elongation stretches the muscle groups. This also releases a chemical energy which makes the muscles fire. To activate this you only initially need to turn the hips 5 to 10 degrees. Important, once you created separation the lower body must stabilize, so you can you fire the upper body straight away.
If you maintain separation for two long the chemical energy turns into heat. It must be loaded and fired straight away or you lose loading and firing of the muscles.
I remember years ago it was suggested that those golfers who used too much right hand immobilize the right hand and arm by contracting and holding the muscles for 10 seconds several times before hitting. This used up the chemical and therefore the right side couldn't fire. a cure for hooking.
It would be nice if someone could summarize this thread succintly for an old guy like me. There have been many comments about biomechanics but not much meat shared. Is it priveleged information or available elsewhere for a fee.
I just read your post and didn't catch that 5 to 10 degree thing . . . . My question is where? On the backstroke? Downstroke? Another thing would be what plane angle are we talking about?
As to that deal about contracting and holding muscles for ten seconds . . . I've heard about doing that for some other stuff . . . and it wasn't for no hooking (well maybe it was???). But if people think that's gonna cure a hook . . . . they need to head up to Maine and meet one Mr. Olberdingleberry . . . There is no address but you'll know your close by the distinct stench in the air. Nothing like the smell of goat turds in the morning . . . .
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