From a setup position do the shoulders turn parallel to to the ground or perpendicular to the spine. Which I take it to mean the left shoulder turns toward the ball. Is this right?
Last edited by jerry1967 : 05-28-2009 at 04:47 PM.
Depends on the plane angle and hand path and knee action and hip action . . . . basically what components and variations you choose.
Helpful 12PB!! but accurate I guess...
The 2 options in the real world are :-
- backswing either rotated shoulder turn (90 degrees to spine) or flat shoulder turn (to postion right shoulder on plane)...
- downswing - both of the above should have "on plane" shoulder turn.
If that is correct...it begs the question what are the differences in the backswing...which components go with which etc...
There is some line about rotated shoulder turn achieving same plane as flat shoulder turn at top/end...but it all depends on waist bend or something...
If waist bend is key then that is all knees and hips...like 12PB said...
Need some wisdom to understand how it works together...not me sadly...
- backswing either rotated shoulder turn (90 degrees to spine) or flat shoulder turn (to postion right shoulder on plane)...
- downswing - both of the above should have "on plane" shoulder turn.
If that is correct...it begs the question what are the differences in the backswing...which components go with which etc...
There is some line about rotated shoulder turn achieving same plane as flat shoulder turn at top/end...but it all depends on waist bend or something...
If waist bend is key then that is all knees and hips...like 12PB said...
Need some wisdom to understand how it works together...not me sadly...
Generally I think it has lots to do with the selected plane angle. Mr. Kelley said that he thought about naming the book Plane Golf. So the components must comply with the plane and hand path. Generally I'd say the steeper the plane the flatter the shoulder turn and vicey versy. So the more up the hands go generally the shoulder plane is going to be flatter and the more "deep" they go the shoulder turn will be steeper.
There are options Im sure, but assuming a flat shoulder turn back to the Turned Shoulder Plane would it be correct to think that....... The steeper the Angle of the Hands at Top , the more the Plane Angle must shift down, flatten out, in Startdown to get both the Hands and Right Shoulder onto the Turned Shoulder Plane?
Our perhaps I am wrong in assuming the Hands and Right Shoulder need to be on the same plane in Startdown?
From a setup position do the shoulders turn parallel to to the ground or perpendicular to the spine. Which I take it to mean the left shoulder turns toward the ball. Is this right?
Hi Jerry, this is my way (with "shoulders turn perpendicular to the spine"), the easy, natural, simple and reliable way.
Good luck and have fun!
__________________ Yani Tseng, Go! Go! Go! Yani Tseng Did It Again! YOU load and sustain the "LAG", during which the "LAW" releases it, ideally beyond impact.
"Sustain (Yang/陽) the lag (Yin/陰)" is "the unification of Ying and Yang" (陰陽合一).
The "LAW" creates the "effect", which is the "motion" or "feel", with the "cause", which is the "intent" or "command".
"Lag" is the secret of golf, passion is the secret of life.
Think as a golfer, execute like a robot.
Rotate, twist, spin, turn. Bend the shaft.
Hi Jerry, this is my way (with "shoulders turn perpendicular to the spine"), the easy, natural, simple and reliable way.
Good luck and have fun!
Dear BTS,
That was a very nice video, thank you for sharing your procedure and thoughts.
However, what you think you do, and how you think you do it, and what you really do, are each a little different.
First, when you demonstrate the Rotated shoulder Turn, by standing upright, and include Arm Motion on the same Plane as the Shoulder Turn, you are demonstrating an "On-Plane" shoulder Turn and not a "Rotated Shoulder Turn".
NOTE: An On-Plane Shoulder Turn destroys the Right Forearm Flying Wedge. Same with the Rotated Shoulder Turn. Or, you may choose to destroy the Left Arm Flying Wedge in some cases and Keep the Right Forearm Flying Wedge but you can't have both. The Right Shoulder must comply with The Flying Wedges which comply with the Hands, which comply with the Swing Plane. Without the Flying Wedges, you're a two-Barrel-Swinger or One-Barrel-Hitter. (for all of you Hitters out there, who can't hit the Ball as far as you can when you swing, check your Flying Wedges. This misalignment isn't allowing you to pressurize the #2-3 combination or else the Shaft would be Off-Plane.)
Second, You do not use a Rotated Shoulder Turn. You have a "Standard Shoulder Turn", which is a Flat Backstroke and an On-Plane Downstroke Right Shoulder. And a very good one.
Your Backstroke uses a Shoulder Turn Takeaway. So, you shift Planes on the Backstroke and pull your Right Forearm off-Plane. Your Right Forearm is way high at Release.
Your Right Forearm is not providing guidance for the Downstroke or Release Interval. Your Perfectly On-Plane Right Shoulder during the Downstroke is moving the Left Shoulder which guides the Left Arm and Hand and #2 Pressure Point into Release.
I don't know enough to give an accurate analysis and only having one swing with one club, I cannot list your Component Variations with any certainty, but:
Plane Angle: Downstroke; 10-6-D #B, "Turning Shoulder Plane" Downstroke with On-Plane Right Shoulder.
Shoulder Turn: 10-13-A, "Standard Shoulder Turn"
Please don't take any of this as rude or negative, and I know that you can shoot scratch Golf and win tournaments with your procedure. I only meant it to be instructional.
That was a very nice video, thank you for sharing your procedure and thoughts. No problem, which makes things easier.
However, what you think you do, and how you think you do it, and what you really do, are each a little different. Well, I sure know what I'm talking and doing, so are the "Cause and Effect", despite scoring low in TGM terms, which I apologize if any confusion was thus created. Again, I just want to make it as simple as posible. And it's just my way, or
.
First, when you demonstrate the Rotated shoulder Turn, by standing upright, and include Arm Motion on the same Plane as the Shoulder Turn, you are demonstrating an "On-Plane" shoulder Turn and not a "Rotated Shoulder Turn". I see. Yet, I don't remember mention "Rotated Shoulder Turn" in my swing, did I?.
NOTE: An On-Plane Shoulder Turn destroys the Right Forearm Flying Wedge. Same with the Rotated Shoulder Turn. Or, you may choose to destroy the Left Arm Flying Wedge in some cases and Keep the Right Forearm Flying Wedge but you can't have both. The Right Shoulder must comply with The Flying Wedges which comply with the Hands, which comply with the Swing Plane. Without the Flying Wedges, you're a two-Barrel-Swinger or One-Barrel-Hitter. (for all of you Hitters out there, who can't hit the Ball as far as you can when you swing, check your Flying Wedges. This misalignment isn't allowing you to pressurize the #2-3 combination or else the Shaft would be Off-Plane.)
Second, You do not use a Rotated Shoulder Turn. You have a "Standard Shoulder Turn", which is a Flat Backstroke and an On-Plane Downstroke Right Shoulder. And a very good one.
Your Backstroke uses a Shoulder Turn Takeaway. So, you shift Planes on the Backstroke and pull your Right Forearm off-Plane. I don't, instead, the "Law" or the club does. Your Right Forearm is way high at Release.You mean the right forearm or club shaft?
Your Right Forearm is not providing guidance for the Downstroke or Release Interval. Your Perfectly On-Plane Right Shoulder during the Downstroke is moving the Left Shoulder which guides the Left Arm and Hand and #2 Pressure Point into Release.
I don't know enough to give an accurate analysis and only having one swing with one club, I literally use the same procedure (my way of "Swinging") for all clubs.I cannot list your Component Variations with any certainty, but:
Plane Angle: Downstroke; 10-6-D #B, "Turning Shoulder Plane" Downstroke with On-Plane Right Shoulder.
Shoulder Turn: 10-13-A, "Standard Shoulder Turn"
Please don't take any of this as rude or negative, and I know that you can shoot scratch Golf and win tournaments with your procedure. I only meant it to be instructional.
Thanks for the classification and clarification, which are very instructional, indeed. I'll definitely work on "the Magic of the Right Forearm" and EA stuff and see the difference.
__________________ Yani Tseng, Go! Go! Go! Yani Tseng Did It Again! YOU load and sustain the "LAG", during which the "LAW" releases it, ideally beyond impact.
"Sustain (Yang/陽) the lag (Yin/陰)" is "the unification of Ying and Yang" (陰陽合一).
The "LAW" creates the "effect", which is the "motion" or "feel", with the "cause", which is the "intent" or "command".
"Lag" is the secret of golf, passion is the secret of life.
Think as a golfer, execute like a robot.
Rotate, twist, spin, turn. Bend the shaft.
but accurate I guess...
NOTE: An On-Plane Shoulder Turn destroys the Right Forearm Flying Wedge. Same with the Rotated Shoulder Turn. Or, you may choose to destroy the Left Arm Flying Wedge in some cases and Keep the Right Forearm Flying Wedge but you can't have both. The Right Shoulder must comply with The Flying Wedges which comply with the Hands, which comply with the Swing Plane. Without the Flying Wedges, you're a two-Barrel-Swinger or One-Barrel-Hitter. (for all of you Hitters out there, who can't hit the Ball as far as you can when you swing, check your Flying Wedges. This misalignment isn't allowing you to pressurize the #2-3 combination or else the Shaft would be Off-Plane.)
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