DG - You wrote-: "If you rotate the hips at the beginning of the downswing your shoulders will move outward....an over the top move."
I agree with you. A golfer should never rotate the pelvis at the start of the downswing. A golfer should first shift the pelvis left-laterally in a hip squaring action before rotating the pelvis in an assertive left hip clearing action. If the pelvis rotates back 45 degrees during the backswing, then there needs to be a 135 degree pelvic rotation to get to a finish position where the pelvis is square (parallel) to the target. At the start of the downswing, there is a hip shift-rotation movement that shifts the pelvis left-laterally and squares the pelvis. The left-lateral pelvic shift movement that squares the hips (to a sit down look) also involves a 45 degree pelvic rotation. However, the left-lateral shift component dominates the lower body movement. The true left hip clearing action - a further 90 degree rotation of the pelvis - occurs in the later downswing.
One can clearly see Ben Hogan's shift-rotation movement of the pelvis in his initiating downswing action in this video lesson. Note how the pelvis squares in the early downswing (in his pump-it drill action).
Watch how the lower body movement causes his right shoulder to move downplane and causes his clubshaft to shallow-out.
Jeff.
Sounds like the recommended 10-14-B, slide with a delayed turn.
DG - You wrote-: "Tommy's agruement was if your hands got above shoulder high the start of the downswing shouldn't happend with the lower body."
Tell that to the present World Long Drive Competiton winner - Jamie Sadloski
Or, you could offer that same advice to Jason Zuback, another World Long Drive Competition winner.
I once asked Jason how he started his downswing and he stated that all he thinks of is starting the downswing with an ultrasfast lower body shift rotation movement.
Jeff.
At this time, I don't have time to go through the material I have on Tommy that makes the arguement on starting the downswing with the right arm versus the lower body. The arguement includes Jack Nicklaus and it's a good one.
For now, the GI 1991 interview states it's all terribly wrong (lower body startdown for swinging). I believe I sent you the interview.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 11-30-2008 at 12:16 PM.
I sorry Mr. DG I just can't put any credence in what you say. I met with tommy a number of times over the years. At first I thought I might review my own video tapes of my encounters with tommy to see what you were talking about. I have also studied the book with Alex Sloan, had lessons with Ben Doyle, Greg McHatton and Bobby Schaeffer. I just find your comments lack credibility. What is your handicap and where do you play. Where can the members of this forum see the information from any DVD's, VHS tapes, notes or other Tomasello sources. Bring them foward. I researched TGM world thoroughly this year and came to the conclusion that Lynn's extensive knowledge of both Homer and his writings was on target. I know it is accurate, I can trust it, can go to the bank on it and more importantly it is all I need to achieve success. I know Lynn's curriculm vitae but I don't know yours. I am tired of this thread and hopefully it will be ended. I don't feel there is anything for me to gain by researching by own tapes of tommy. Beside I would rather ask one of the many living authorized instructors who can provide more accurate infomation than someone trying to parse the comments of a dead one.
I sorry Mr. DG I just can't put any credence in what you say. I met with tommy a number of times over the years. At first I thought I might review my own video tapes of my encounters with tommy to see what you were talking about. I have also studied the book with Alex Sloan, had lessons with Ben Doyle, Greg McHatton and Bobby Schaeffer. I just find your comments lack credibility. What is your handicap and where do you play. Where can the members of this forum see the information from any DVD's, VHS tapes, notes or other Tomasello sources. Bring them foward. I researched TGM world thoroughly this year and came to the conclusion that Lynn's extensive knowledge of both Homer and his writings was on target. I know it is accurate, I can trust it, can go to the bank on it and more importantly it is all I need to achieve success. I know Lynn's curriculm vitae but I don't know yours. I am tired of this thread and hopefully it will be ended. I don't feel there is anything for me to gain by researching by own tapes of tommy. Beside I would rather ask one of the many living authorized instructors who can provide more accurate infomation than someone trying to parse the comments of a dead one.
You know many of the living authorized instructors may lack the details that Tom didn't....I have provided my videos to this website why don't you??? I'm not a TGM authorized instructor nor am I a PGA professional....but I am a former student of Tommy's who would like to find as many sources of his instruction to complete my TGM education. I believe Tommy is the most reliable source for correct TGM instruction along with the man himself Homer Kelly....it's funny Alex Sloan called Tom Tomasello the greatest golf instructor in the world....it's on audio tape. I will end my search once I find sources who have Tommy's instruction on audio or video per Tommy's Swinging School, Hitting School and Advanced School. Let the search begin...Yeee Hawww.
Oh, btw, in addition to studying with Tom Tomasello, I have studied TGM with GSEM Rick Rounsaville who studied with GSEDs Ben D., Alex S. and Greg M. and George K.
My source of info comes from Tom Tomasello....I limit my opinions about the golf swing to nill. So what you're really saying is...one of the closest GSED's to Homer is unreliable. Go Figure...I'm sorry if you might have to change your golf swing to be incompliance with the GOLFING MACHINE. It's not my fault.
Please don't call me Mr. DG....that sounds so lame.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 11-30-2008 at 04:28 PM.
DG, i don't think it is fair for you to continually refer to the TT interview if you won't share what you are referencing so others can see for themselves. i have now PM'd you 5 times with nothing coming of it. saying that you have already sent it doesn't cut it really. i have a lot of faith in the email courier, he's a reliable guy.
if anyone else has it i'd greatly appreciate a pm and i'll give you my email.
DG, i don't think it is fair for you to continually refer to the TT interview if you won't share what you are referencing so others can see for themselves. i have now PM'd you 5 times with nothing coming of it. saying that you have already sent it doesn't cut it really. i have a lot of faith in the email courier, he's a reliable guy.
if anyone else has it i'd greatly appreciate a pm and i'll give you my email.
I have sent that interview to hundreds of members....I have a sent email that I sent you the interview unless you made a mistake in the address you gave me.
I just sent another copy....
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 11-30-2008 at 09:44 PM.
I have sent that interview to hundreds of members....I have a sent email that I sent you the interview unless you made a mistake in the address you gave me.
I just sent another copy....
mrose,
When you get it, PM Bambam, and he will tell you how to get it to him. Then, we'll put it up for all to read.
I have now spent a lot of time trying out TT's "right arm throw" action.
I agree with you on one critical point - that it must start with an arm action and not a lower body action. TT's throw action is to throw the clubshaft "down-and-out" on the plane and to get the clubshaft moving down-and-out towards the ball before the body moves. I agree that the body must move secondarily/reactively to the throw. I can also understand how the body musn't move before the throw because that will predispose to throwing the club out in an OTT manner.
There is one major technical flaw in TT's description. He talks of uncocking both wrists in the throw action - activated by the right forearm. However, the right wrist never cocks in the backswing, it only bends backwards (dorsiflexes) - because the right arm flying wedge is always at a right angle to the left arm flying wedge at the top of the backswing. Therefore, when TT states that one throws the club from the top, the right wrist cannot uncock because it was never cocked up at any time point during the backswing. TT demonstrates a right arm throw action - using only his right arm - and it looks like he is uncocking his right wrist in an ulnar direction. However, that is not technically possible in a full golf swing - because if the flat left wrist is uncocking "on plane" and the right arm flying wedge is right-angled opposed to the uncocking left arm flying wedge, then the right wrist must perform an action that is 90 degrees opposed to the "on plane" uncocking motion of the left arm flying wedge. That obviously cannot be a right wrist uncocking motion. So, TT is wrong on two technical accounts - i) the right wrist never cocks upwards during the backswing and ii) any right wrist action must be at right angles to the down-and-out planar movement of the uncocking left arm flying wedge (uncocking left wrist). That right wrist action (if it occurred) would therefore have to be a palmar flexion action, and I suspect that even you wouldn't recommend that the right wrist should actively palmar flex in a swinger's action. Or would you?
I have now spent a lot of time trying out TT's "right arm throw" action.
I agree with you on one critical point - that it must start with an arm action and not a lower body action. TT's throw action is to throw the clubshaft "down-and-out" on the plane and to get the clubshaft moving down-and-out towards the ball before the body moves. I agree that the body must move secondarily/reactively to the throw. I can also understand how the body musn't move before the throw because that will predispose to throwing the club out in an OTT manner.
There is one major technical flaw in TT's description. He talks of uncocking both wrists in the throw action - activated by the right forearm. However, the right wrist never cocks in the backswing, it only bends backwards (dorsiflexes) - because the right arm flying wedge is always at a right angle to the left arm flying wedge at the top of the backswing. Therefore, when TT states that one throws the club from the top, the right wrist cannot uncock because it was never cocked up at any time point during the backswing. TT demonstrates a right arm throw action - using only his right arm - and it looks like he is uncocking his right wrist in an ulnar direction. However, that is not technically possible in a full golf swing - because if the flat left wrist is uncocking "on plane" and the right arm flying wedge is right-angled opposed to the uncocking left arm flying wedge, then the right wrist must perform an action that is 90 degrees opposed to the "on plane" uncocking motion of the left arm flying wedge. That obviously cannot be a right wrist uncocking motion. So, TT is wrong on two technical accounts - i) the right wrist never cocks upwards during the backswing and ii) any right wrist action must be at right angles to the down-and-out planar movement of the uncocking left arm flying wedge (uncocking left wrist). That right wrist action (if it occurred) would therefore have to be a palmar flexion action, and I suspect that even you wouldn't recommend that the right wrist should actively palmar flex in a swinger's action. Or would you?
Jeff.
Jeff,
Trust me Tommy doesn't cock the right wrist on the backswing. Nor does he try to uncock the right and left wrist at the beginning of the downswing (he karate chops with the right forearm...re-read the last paragraph of 7-3, with that karate chopping action he won't uncock that right wrist, it will stay bent and level because Tommy has trained himself to execute the Magic of the Right Forearm properly.). However, the right and left wrist go to an uncocked position post impact. Ya got to put his instruction into context...which you failed to do. At this point, I recommend you re-watch the whole Chapter series then watch the whole Letter series....you're getting close to figuring it out. I wouldn't stop. You'll start to see how good Tommy is at getting a golfer to use his right arm for swinging and hitting without generating a throw-away condition.
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 12-01-2008 at 01:10 AM.
. . . at the beginning of the downswing (he karate chops with the right forearm...
DG,
The first three Sections of the Downstroke are Start Down (8-7), Downstroke (8-8 ) and Release (8-9).
The Action you describe is the Right Arm Throw (10-20-B). It is a defined Stroke Pattern Component (#20) Variation used to Trigger the Release of the Power Package. Accordingly, it is employed at Release (8-9), not at the "beginning of the downswing" (8-7).
You do your man a disservice to continue to assert otherwise.
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