IMHO the intent of the pitchers leg kick is to ensure that he moves as far down the mound as possible thereby turning as much potential energy into kinetic energy as possible.
...don't cricket bowlers (correct term?) take steps before they throw?...same idea.-hcw
In Cricket Bowling and Throwing are two entirely different things and the mechanics are mutually exclusive.
Bowling requires the arm that delivers the ball to be completely straight throughout the delivery motion.
We seem, however, to have moved well away from the original issue, being swing power generation from the ground up - a ridiculous concept if ever there was one - and it might now be time to bring this discussion to a conclusion.
I conceed that the body "transportation" not only facilitates the free, on plane, swinging ("transportation") of the arms but has a secondary function in that there is a little (about 10 ====> 15% I understand) enhancement of swing speed.
What I cannot agree is that there is any force that can be brought to bear from the ground up that will propel the club down, nor can I subscribe to the theory that hip rotation causes the arms to swing down and, somehow, powers their motion.
Nevertheless, I reckon we must all be about through with this subject by now so - probably to everyone's great relief - I will butt out.
Seems that you may be miss identifying the major flail of the golf swing which is formed by the left arm and club. Alternatively you may be misinterpreting somehow that I would be suggesting, after much discussion of flailing that the rigid structure of arms would remove flailing. This is not the case. Think extensor action.
If however you are suggesting that the firm attachment of the left arm to shoulder excludes the flailing of a flail formed by the lever from the spine to shoulder (roughly) and the left arm, that is true but a secondary effect in power generation.Golfie
Golfie,
I may have "misinterpreted" what you were saying and probably still do.
However, the point I was trying to make is that a rigid spoke/arm attached to a spindle/torso, which is what I thought you were referring to, would not generate anywhere near the speed by rotation of the spindle that our golfing flailis capable of.
Our golfing flail requires no rotary motion to generate, and transfer, its power from top to bottom. This is done by the straightening of the assembly to its in-line condition: arm power in hitting and centripetal force in swinging.
As Homer was fond of reminding us, the golf swing is a body transported - not powered - arm swing.
Our discussion has been all about what powers the golf swing. That the body transports the arms is an obvious statement that does not address the topic. If you can find a direct quote from Homer that supports this statement, please provide.
It is the rotation of the primary lever assembly of a flail that provides the mechanism to transfer angular momentum from the primary lever to the second lever. Agree or Disagree?
In your one armed experiment, what on earth do you think causes the club to accelerate and pass the hands?
As you not to ascribe power generation capabilities to the rotating body, it seems that you may not yet understand how it is possible to transmit momentum from the body into the clubhead. A simple modification of your one armed experiment should suffice. As before, swing your golfers flail in a one armed fashion. Note the whoosh. Now add the right arm by gripping the left wrist. Use this as a strut to create a firm structure. Flex your abs as firmly as possible - this ensures that hip rotation yields torso rotation. Rotate the hips. Note the WHOOSH. There is significant increase in peak clubhead speed. Agree or Disagree?
BTW the one armed golfers flail is relatively ineffective at generating high speeds. Burner’s experiment probably showed this to most. Generally, high speeds are attained in flails where the secondary lever is significant shorter and or lighter than the primary lever.
Adding the right arm adds effective mass to th eprimary lever as noted by Homer.
We seem, however, to have moved well away from the original issue, being swing power generation from the ground up - a ridiculous concept if ever there was one - and it might now be time to bring this discussion to a conclusion.
I conceed that the body "transportation" not only facilitates the free, on plane, swinging ("transportation") of the arms but has a secondary function in that there is a little (about 10 ====> 15% I understand) enhancement of swing speed.
What I cannot agree is that there is any force that can be brought to bear from the ground up that will propel the club down, nor can I subscribe to the theory that hip rotation causes the arms to swing down and, somehow, powers their motion.
Nevertheless, I reckon we must all be about through with this subject by now so - probably to everyone's great relief - I will butt out.
i think lagster's original question was where did the long-drive guys have the highest acceleration and how did they accomplish it...my theory was that it is at impact an they achieve it by starting the acceleration with things furthest from the clubhead (legs/hips) and then add acceleration of the parts in sequence (torso->shoulders->arms->wrists/hands->clubhead) and waiting as long as possible to release the clubhead...that "little" 10-15% enhancement you mentioned would be the difference between 300 yds and 330-345 yds...an enhancement most would welcome i believe...as for how the ground forces help out i found this interesting site when i searched for info on cricket bowling:
...check out Figure 4. and the paragraph above it (hint: in golf the hip bump/slide/rotation = the run up+leap)...i already tried to illustrate how in a golf stance rotation of the hips can move the arms/hands/club up and down the inclined plane...since that didn't do it for you i think it is also time for me (on this subject) to keep silent!
Zone 1 is body movements and balance and defines the geometrical alignments and relationships....(9-1)
Included in Zone #1 are the Pivot, Shoulder Turn, Hip Turn, Hip Action, Knee Action and Foot Action
Zone #2 adds the Arms and the Club to the circular motion of the Pivot just for the generation of Clubhead Power (10-19-0). (9-2)
Included in Zone #2 are Grips, Grip Types, Basic Stroke, Stroke Types & Variations, Fix, Address, Pressure Point Conmbinations Left Wrist Action, Lag Loading, Trigger Types, Power Package Assembly Point, and Power Package Loading Action.
(6-C-0)Accumulator Lag (7-19) and/or Thrust (7-11) determine the amount of Power generated by the Power Package -- Zone #2 (9-2).
Now all that said, we have :
Pivot Lag (9-1) is Body Power for Swingers (2-M-4), launching pad for Hitters (2-M-3), and for both, operates like a "gear train" to extend the Swing Radius of the Pirmary Lever to any point from teh Shoulder Turn on down to the Feet (Zone #1). Both Inertia and the Moment Arm of the Thrust act the same in that the farther from the center the greater the authority.
(7-12) Pivot .....It is the massive vehicle which transports the Power Package Assembly to the launching pad and back-up support for the Hitter's driving Right Arm (6-B-1). It is the massive rotor, supplying Angular Momentum for the Throw Out power transfer of the Swinger's orbiting Left Arm (6-B-3).
My understanding the Pivot though it doesn't generate the power, it can amplifly the power that is generated. For example standing in place and throwing a ball overhand you have a limit how much you can do. Now take and do the same motion while running, you have extended you range cause you are no longer stationary (the power package) but it is on a moving transport that amplifies it. Maybe not the correct terms but I think the idea comes across.
(7-12) Pivot .....It is the massive vehicle which transports the Power Package Assembly to the launching pad and back-up support for the Hitter's driving Right Arm (6-B-1). It is the massive rotor, supplying Angular Momentum for the Throw Out power transfer of the Swinger's orbiting Left Arm (6-B-3).
My understanding the Pivot though it doesn't generate the power, it can amplifly the power that is generated. .....
Martee,
What I think we have here is basic difference in terminology. In a physics sense "What powers the swing" is the legs. Eg. what does the work to power up the rotor. In a golfing sense of "Boy that's a powerful swing" it is mostly techique - power accumulators, alignments - that produce high clubhead speed by harnessing the momentum of the body via the Golfers Flail. Utmost importance must be placed oupon techinique. Almost everyone is capable, assuming the technique is in place, of turning fast enough to propel a golf ball a long way.
What I think we have here is basic difference in terminology. In a physics sense "What powers the swing" is the legs. Eg. what does the work to power up the rotor. In a golfing sense of "Boy that's a powerful swing" it is mostly techique - power accumulators, alignments - that produce high clubhead speed by harnessing the momentum of the body via the Golfers Flail. Utmost importance must be placed oupon techinique. Almost everyone is capable, assuming the technique is in place, of turning fast enough to propel a golf ball a long way.
(7-12) Pivot .....It is the massive vehicle which transports the Power Package Assembly to the launching pad and back-up support for the Hitter's driving Right Arm (6-B-1). It is the massive rotor, supplying Angular Momentum for the Throw Out power transfer of the Swinger's orbiting Left Arm (6-B-3).
My understanding the Pivot though it doesn't generate the power, it can amplifly the power that is generated. .....
Martee,
What I think we have here is basic difference in terminology. In a physics sense "What powers the swing" is the legs. Eg. what does the work to power up the rotor. In a golfing sense of "Boy that's a powerful swing" it is mostly techique - power accumulators, alignments - that produce high clubhead speed by harnessing the momentum of the body via the Golfers Flail. Utmost importance must be placed oupon techinique. Almost everyone is capable, assuming the technique is in place, of turning fast enough to propel a golf ball a long way.
Golfie
Proabably with a doubt terminology is at question when we enter these discussions. Between what we have read, what we feel, what we think we are doing, all adds to this problem.
That is where I find TGM to add clarity. The Zones as defined, the Muscles used, etc.
But even in physics the base unit that the motor is mounted on (Iron Byron) is not considered what powers the rotator movement. Without a doubt it does play a role, but I can't see that it is what does the powering.
Proabably with a doubt terminology is at question when we enter these discussions. Between what we have read, what we feel, what we think we are doing, all adds to this problem.
That is where I find TGM to add clarity. The Zones as defined, the Muscles used, etc.
But even in physics the base unit that the motor is mounted on (Iron Byron) is not considered what powers the rotator movement. Without a doubt it does play a role, but I can't see that it is what does the powering.
Proabably with a doubt terminology is at question when we enter these discussions. Between what we have read, what we feel, what we think we are doing, all adds to this problem.
That is where I find TGM to add clarity. The Zones as defined, the Muscles used, etc.
But even in physics the base unit that the motor is mounted on (Iron Byron) is not considered what powers the rotator movement. Without a doubt it does play a role, but I can't see that it is what does the powering.
Maybe I am missing your point.
Point is the legs are the motor.
Well that makes it simple, we disagree. TGM doesn't support the legs as the motor and I don't subscribe that either.
I would ask if the legs are the motor, then what would be the type legs reqguire to play power golf? (Like in running, sprint runners vs long distance running.) Also how did Hogan do it after his accident. At the LA Open he could barely walk but yet he cranked to ball out there.
The biomechanics and speicifc exercises for golf seem to support that legs /lower body require strength for stabiliztion as well as endurance to play 36 holes. Now the lower body does control the hips, amount of rotation, amount slide possible.
I tried kicking my right knee inward to move my hip. I had to reach the run out before the hip was moved my this motion. That basically would place the knee in what may be considered post impact position or close to it. Shifting weight? Is this changing the pressure between legs? Still no power generation that I can feel.
- I will butt out.
that I would be suggesting, after much discussion of flailing that the rigid structure of arms would remove flailing. This is not the case. Think extensor action. 
Linear Mode
