I don't think CF produces an over roll. It doesn't produce a roll at all. It produces angled hinging.
I actually thought that CF (or actually angular speed) would add inertia and make it harder to close the club than when it is at rest. But after a brief check on www on angular inertia, coreolis force etc I think the work requred is the same in any case.
The machine have to close the club directly. A level hip probably helps for precision. And a good pair of wedges. A little initial torque from the top or somewhere in the down stroke. And keeping the left wrist vertical throughout. Whether the closing is freewheeling or adjusted by the hands isn't a biggie. The hands know their impact alignments whether they are right or wrong, and the work involved in closing the club is anyway close to nil.
All the cf will do is keep the club moving in circles at a constant speed. It's the radial pp forces and possibly a momentum at the hinge pin that increases rotary speed.
If you let go of CF the club will go way left. Spinning around its longitudinal MOI befor it lands in the dirt.
When I said above that CF produces angled hinging I wasn't intending to exclude horizontal hinging. The spin can be horizontal and therefore also the hinging can be horizontal. Or vertical. if the plane is vertical But not dual.
Perhaps my post's title or question is incorrectly worded from a science point of view then. When I say CF perhaps I should say Radial Force or Rotational force or some such thing.
I think I get what you are saying in last paragraph. So assuming we are on an Inclined Plane somewhere in between vertical and horizontal, an Angled Hinge will tend towards the characteristics of the closest plane be it vertical or horizontal. Is that what you mean?
In that case, Homer's string demonstration, didnt/couldnt display horizontal hinging but rather an Angled Hinge.
Did Homer Kelley use that Term? Actually, no, I didn't know that Ben Doyle said that. I have his tapes, DVD's, I've had 2 lessons with Ben Doyle and I've talked to him on the Phone many times and he has never said to me that Release is "Dumping" and I wouldn't describe my Release as "Dumping". But I haven't a clue what that means even if Ben Doyle coined the term unless I asked him to explain it.
I don't believe that Mr Kelley used the term either. He was very precise with his written and spoken word according to legend. However, I am not aware that he forbade his students from adopting ways of expressing themselves to their students in a manner they considered the most expedient to get the message across. The message rather than the messenger being the important item.
Originally Posted by Daryl
What do you mean "Feast at your Table"? Are you saying that in addition to thousands of available stroke patterns, that TGM concepts themselves are open for a variety of equally valid interpretations?
"Feast at your table" is an analogy. I used it in relation to those who wholly subscribe your view: as opposed to those who do not and, dare I add, sometimes are made to suffer for it.
Originally Posted by Daryl
Burner, it's odd that Ben Doyle said that.
On an occasion, perhaps, when Mr Kelley's terminology was proving difficult to grasp. On the other hand, Mr Doyle's expression may have been, at that time, a little more succinct.
Originally Posted by Daryl
During my first lesson, Ben broke a tee in half and pushed it into the ground on a rearward leaning angle so that only a very tiny tip of the tee remained above ground. He told me to to use a chipping stroke and drive the tee into the ground without touching a single blade of grass. I said: "impossible". He took the club out of my hand, then, using a Pitching length Swing he not only drove the tee underground but did so without touching a single blade of grass as he continued with an almost full finish. Whoa. He gave the club back to me, and with a chipping stroke I hit every blade of grass around the tee without ever touching the tee. He told me I should learn to do that with a full swing.
Is the skill level and precision Impact needed for that test, best described by "Dumping"?
The methods of expression used should depend more on the person receiving the information, I think, than the person giving it. But, I don't think "dumping" would have been a term of any relevance to that excercise anyhow.
So I start thinking: Maybe the rotation doesn't care whether the club face is vertical at all times. So I do a little experiment. You can do it to:
Take aquired motion with your right hand. From horizontal to horizontal. Flat vertical hand at all times. Anti clockwise rotation right? Then turn around 180% and complete the circle. Not down and up. But up and back to horizontal. Complete the circle. Clock wise rotation on the upper half.
I don't see how this - anti clock wise and clock wise can alternate without additional forces doing something. Can earth gravity do it? Maybe but I don't see how at the moment.
"Keep the Rotor going". Nice, we've all felt the consequences of not doing that. I think this maybe ties in with what Slice said too. Is this a maintenance of CF then? If Homer had of slowed the RPM's of twirling string would the face have rolled over?
Do you mind taking us through the photos, what do you see there? Is Adam Scotts COG or Axis of Rotation (in a VJ Trolio sense) not far enough left to your mind? In the comparison of Hogan and Tiger , is it Hogans hips being turned more that you are looking at? The right foot drag move of his that Knudson adopted plays a big part in that I believe although its relates to ones flexibility and is therefor a custom fit kind of deal. Hogans drag was smallish , Knusdon's especially as he got older was longer as he preached getting to Finish in a super comfortable way with your "center" (cog, I guess) pointing right at the target, exactly. But I digress.
What I see is right shoulder geometry in action . . . look at Hogan's right shoulder (Lynnard LBGreengenez too!) compared to Scott at start down. Scott's right shoulder has already ducked under his left shoulder . . . axis tilt already starting to kick in. Take a look farther into the swing and compare where Eldrick's right shoulder is compared to Hogan at a similar spot in the swang . . . Hogan's right arm "runs out of chain" way later than Eldrick and Scott too . . . Eldrick's gettin his tilt by his head going back vs. Hogan who get's his axis tilt from his hips going forward. Look at Scott's wrist just past follow thru . . . he's rubbing forearms together (you can get thrown in jail for that down here) . . . but do you think he's trying to do that? Or can't help it?
What I see is right shoulder geometry in action . . . look at Hogan's right shoulder (Lynnard LBGreengenez too!) compared to Scott at start down. Scott's right shoulder has already ducked under his left shoulder . . . axis tilt already starting to kick in. Take a look farther into the swing and compare where Eldrick's right shoulder is compared to Hogan at a similar spot in the swang . . . Hogan's right arm "runs out of chain" way later than Eldrick and Scott too . . . Eldrick's gettin his tilt by his head going back vs. Hogan who get's his axis tilt from his hips going forward. Look at Scott's wrist just past follow thru . . . he's rubbing forearms together (you can get thrown in jail for that down here) . . . but do you think he's trying to do that? Or can't help it?
Thanks for sharing Bucket. You're giving away some of the secret spices and herbs here. Awesome.
"Feast at your table" is an analogy. I used it in relation to those who wholly subscribe your view: as opposed to those who do not and, dare I add, sometimes are made to suffer for it.
Are you criticizing me because I'm Muslim? داريل دَلساسو
Seriously, there's a difference between "Lively" discussion and someone "Suffering". I think it has a lot to do with the perception of the one reading the response. I'm not a "mean" person. I certainly don't want people to suffer. OMG, this is a Golf Forum.
I'll think of a "Warning" that I can use as a "Signature", visible at the end of every post I write, that will advise the reader that -no harm - was intended and I hope that personal injury was not suffered from reading this post.
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