Pistol - you wrote-: "---but i suspect some amount of active right hand participation don't you wonder why hogan had a tonne of it".
I am amazed that you can infer the presence of active right hand muscle action simply by looking at that photo of Trevor Immelman, and I am equally amazed that you can conclude that Hogan had a tonne of active right hand action in his swing - simply by observing a swing video of his swing.
In terms of what represents active right hand action in Hogan's swing, you now seem to be referring to an active right wrist ulnar deviation uncocking action. Even if I were to accept your argument that active right forearm muscle were involved in Hogan's swing, the muscles that produce that particular right wrist 'karate-chop' action must be the forearm muscles that ulnarly deviate the wrist.
Here is a photo showing the forearm muscles that produce ulnar deviation of the wrist.
The muscles colored in yellow represent the two forearm muscles that produce ulnar deviation of the wrist (1 = extensor carpi ulnaris; 2 = flexor carpi ulnaris). In terms of the volume of forearm muscle bulk, they represent only a small fraction of total forearm muscle bulk. I, therefore, cannot imagine how they can contribute much to swing power through the impact zone - even if they are actively contracting to their maximum degree.
Whatever Hogan meant by "three right hands", I would be amazed to learn that he was referring to 3 x the forearm muscle power contributed by those two forearm muscles.
Jeff.
Jeff
Amazing interpretation of illusion versus reality that you seem to make . The right hand is amazing i want 3 for myself. So hogan states i wish i had 3 right hands but from what your implying he must have been off his face in La La land when he wrote that. I prefer to see the obvious that his swing changed to the point where his pivot ( read VJ T book) became automatic and the whole 3 right hands deal kicked in so he became a Hand conrolled Pivot player
I ask you this Jeff in which golfswing do forearm muscles not contract? Why would you want to even think about the forearm contracting? Why would you want to pull the club ? Don't you think your left forearm muscle would contract?
And while you are digging there can you go in to great detail for me as to how Hogan squared the clubface to the arc relatively early in his downswing and believe me there is some great photos out there that will prove this.
Since he got the club "laid off" and open relative to the plane at the top if he just Pulled the club what would happen??
Jeff i am waiting with much anticipation for your answers
Pistol - you wrote-: "---but i suspect some amount of active right hand participation don't you wonder why hogan had a tonne of it".
I am amazed that you can infer the presence of active right hand muscle action simply by looking at that photo of Trevor Immelman, and I am equally amazed that you can conclude that Hogan had a tonne of active right hand action in his swing - simply by observing a swing video of his swing.
In terms of what represents active right hand action in Hogan's swing, you now seem to be referring to an active right wrist ulnar deviation uncocking action. Even if I were to accept your argument that active right forearm muscle were involved in Hogan's swing, the muscles that produce that particular right wrist 'karate-chop' action must be the forearm muscles that ulnarly deviate the wrist.
Here is a photo showing the forearm muscles that produce ulnar deviation of the wrist.
The muscles colored in yellow represent the two forearm muscles that produce ulnar deviation of the wrist (1 = extensor carpi ulnaris; 2 = flexor carpi ulnaris). In terms of the volume of forearm muscle bulk, they represent only a small fraction of total forearm muscle bulk. I, therefore, cannot imagine how they can contribute much to swing power through the impact zone - even if they are actively contracting to their maximum degree.
Whatever Hogan meant by "three right hands", I would be amazed to learn that he was referring to 3 x the forearm muscle power contributed by those two forearm muscles.
Jeff.
Jeff,
Since the right wrist is hyperextended in the backswing, why wouldn't the muscles involved in the downswing be the flexors?
Also, you stated earlier that the ulnar deviation is passive. Would that not negate the use of the muscles that do this (ul. dev.), or are you describing active/passive from the standpoint of intent, rather than an actual physical standpoint?
NOTE THIS WELL: THE MUSCLES TO WORK WITH ARE THE
"INSIDE MAUSCLES" - THE MUSCLES THAT STRETCH ALONG
THE INSIDE OF THE LEGS AND THIGHTS, THE MUSCLES ALONG
THE INSIDE OF THE ARMS. Pg. 57 of the Five Lessons.
Hg - Thank you so much for the wounderful pictures that
you put up of Hogan.
V.J. Looking at the pictures, you can sure be proud of
the work that you have done.
Since the right wrist is hyperextended in the backswing, why wouldn't the muscles involved in the downswing be the flexors?
Also, you stated earlier that the ulnar deviation is passive. Would that not negate the use of the muscles that do this (ul. dev.), or are you describing active/passive from the standpoint of intent, rather than an actual physical standpoint?
Bigwill
According to TGM teaching, the right wrist should be bent (dorsiflexed) during the backswing, and should remain bent during the entire downswing. Therefore, the right forearm flexor muscles do not have to contract isotonically in order to palmar flex the right wrist during the downswing. However, I think that they maintain a considerable amount of isometric tone so that the driven right forearm can apply steady pressure behind the clubshaft through the impact zone.
I personally think that the forearm muscles causing ulnar deviation are not isotonically active in a swinger's swing, and in that sense they are passive. I believe that the right wrist goes into ulnar deviation passively during the post-impact phase of the swing. However, Pistol claimed that Hogan actively forced his right wrist into ulnar deviation during the downswing, and I only produced that photograph to demonstrate which muscles would be isotonically involved if that fact could be proven to be true.
You wrote-: "And while you are digging there can you go in to great detail for me as to how Hogan squared the clubface to the arc relatively early in his downswing and believe me there is some great photos out there that will prove this. Since he got the club "laid off" and open relative to the plane at the top if he just Pulled the club what would happen??"
This is off-topic. I will start another thread to answer this question.
You wrote-: "And while you are digging there can you go in to great detail for me as to how Hogan squared the clubface to the arc relatively early in his downswing and believe me there is some great photos out there that will prove this. Since he got the club "laid off" and open relative to the plane at the top if he just Pulled the club what would happen??"
This is off-topic. I will start another thread to answer this question.
Jeff.
Jeff
Thanks Jeff i think this would be a great topic on what happens to the clubface etc in different types of release triggers and how "pulling" or "pushing" affects the motions etc
Thank you for the clarification. It is now much more precisely expressed, and it is now 100% concordant with many statements that you have previously made in your archived posts. I was worried that I may have misunderstood your previous archived posts when I first saw the phrase "driven by that action". Your now preferred use of the term "motion" promotes a very different understanding of the biomechanics of the right elbow's motion.
Pistol
You state that TT is implying a right hand/wrist throw. That "belief" really confuses me because I have understood TT to believe in HK's teaching that the right wrist should remain bent throughout the downswing and early (+/- late) followthrough. If the right wrist remains bent, then it is not released, so in what sense is the right wrist/hand thrown (in a way that doesn't involve the elbow joint)?
You also quote as "evidence" for your belief that Hogan used an active right hand/wrist throw the following Hogan statement -: "I wish I had three right hands."
You obviously have a very different understanding of what the word "evidence" means with respect to understanding the biomechanics of a particular golfer's swing.
Jeff.
Just my two cents charged on plastic:
The left wrist uncocking does NOT effect the right bent wrist. The uncocking of the left wrist straightens the right elbow- the elbow that cocked the left wrist in the first place on the take up.
Hogan had three right hands, the pivot and left wrist were the other two of his triad.
If we are ussing all 4 ACC, and a player should always have pressure point assigned to lag, and the ACC's typically corespont with their respective PP. Which pressure points are used for suporting the lag, with 4 barrel, or are the pressure points that are used for the selected ACC, and also used for the lag,
FOr me when i load the ACC especially when using snap loading, i feel the lag being loaded into PP3 however i still use ACC 3
__________________
If the right wrist flattens at or around impact, you will suffer from trajectile disfunction.
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