Thank you for the clarification. It is now much more precisely expressed, and it is now 100% concordant with many statements that you have previously made in your archived posts. I was worried that I may have misunderstood your previous archived posts when I first saw the phrase "driven by that action". Your now preferred use of the term "motion" promotes a very different understanding of the biomechanics of the right elbow's motion.
Pistol
You state that TT is implying a right hand/wrist throw. That "belief" really confuses me because I have understood TT to believe in HK's teaching that the right wrist should remain bent throughout the downswing and early (+/- late) followthrough. If the right wrist remains bent, then it is not released, so in what sense is the right wrist/hand thrown (in a way that doesn't involve the elbow joint)?
You also quote as "evidence" for your belief that Hogan used an active right hand/wrist throw the following Hogan statement -: "I wish I had three right hands."
You obviously have a very different understanding of what the word "evidence" means with respect to understanding the biomechanics of a particular golfer's swing.
You state that TT is implying a right hand/wrist throw. That "belief" really confuses me because I have understood TT to believe in HK's teaching that the right wrist should remain bent throughout the downswing and early (+/- late) followthrough. If the right wrist remains bent, then it is not released, so in what sense is the right wrist/hand thrown (in a way that doesn't involve the elbow joint)?
You also quote as "evidence" for your belief that Hogan used an active right hand/wrist throw the following Hogan statement -: "I wish I had three right hands."
You obviously have a very different understanding of what the word "evidence" means with respect to understanding the biomechanics of a particular golfer's swing.
Jeff.
Jeff
All i can say is watch the TT video again and he clearly demostrates a right hand karate chop ( down and out motion ) . I can clearly see you cannot grasp the simple concept that this can be done without the right wrist unbending in the initial stages of the downswing so try this. Put your right arm in front of you and fold your elbow then bend your right wrist away from you so your hand / fingers go down to the ground and the palm of your hand is facing away from you. Right now just move your hand only in a karate chop motion and you will see that the elbow hardly moves and the bend in the right wrist is still there.Now add right shoulder motion to it.To easy isn't it
As far as me not understanding boimechanics well that is your opinion and frankly you have no evidence to the contrary as you simply can not explain why Hogan wanted 3 right hands and FURTHER you could not explain WHY his right hand comes out in follow through in an UNCOCKED postion but I CAN
Simple the Right hand karate chop motion outlined for you above is the CULPRIT
...You state that TT is implying a right hand/wrist throw. That "belief" really confuses me because I have understood TT to believe in HK's teaching that the right wrist should remain bent throughout the downswing and early (+/- late) followthrough. If the right wrist remains bent, then it is not released, so in what sense is the right wrist/hand thrown (in a way that doesn't involve the elbow joint)?
.
Jeff,
In the Tomasello video I have ( it's in the Gallery, Tomasello chapter 3), Tom talks about the attempt to release the right side wrist angle. He says to try to "undo the bend", and that as long as the left hip keeps moving, you won't be able to actually "undo the bend". Inertia will prevent the release of the angles from actually happening. It's the difference between actual and intent. Peter Croker (who had worked with Tomasello, I think) is a big proponent of this. I think that Martin Green supports this as well.
My personal belief is that this kind of swing thought is only effective if there's an effective pivot to go along with it. Otherwise, you will flip it; there will be throwaway.
Pistol - I think that I may possibly understand your right hand karate chop action better.
You are seemingly describing a right wrist uncocking motion whereby the right wrist (while still bent) moves from a level position to an unccocked position (ulnar-deviated position).
If my understanding is correct, then I agree that the right wrist uncocks in Hogan's swing. However, I believe that i) the right wrist always uncocks in all good golfers' swings during the release of power accumulator #3 and that ii) the right wrist uncocking phenomenon is primarily a passive phenomenon. It is my understanding that during release of power accumulator #3, the wrists have to roll as the clubshaft comes into a straight-in-line alignment with the left arm, and that the primary power source for this phenomenon is the club's inherent momentum acquired during the release of power accumulator #2. I therefore think of the release of power accumulator #3 as being a "transfer power" phenomenon, rather than being primarily due to an active right hand uncocking action. I would be interested in learning of Yoda's opinion regarding this matter, and also whether he thinks that it relates to Hogan's statement that he wished he had "three right hands".
Bigwill - I can understand the idea of an "intent" to release the right wrist bend without actually releasing it. However, I think that the right wrist is actually released during the release of power accumulator #3, but that it is not released due to a right wrist palmar flexion action, but rather due to a right wrist ulnar-deviation action.
Here is a photo of Trevor Immleman during the followthrough phase of the swing.
One gains the "impression" that right hand is rolling under, and I think that it's merely due to fact that the right wrist passively deviates ulnarly during the final stage of the club's release action.
Bigwill - I can understand the idea of an "intent" to release the right wrist bend without actually releasing it. However, I think that the right wrist is actually released during the release of power accumulator #3, but that it is not released due to a right wrist palmar flexion action, but rather due to a right wrist ulnar-deviation action.
Here is a photo of Trevor Immleman during the followthrough phase of the swing.
One gains the "impression" that right hand is rolling under, and I think that it's merely due to fact that the right wrist passively deviates ulnarly during the final stage of the club's release action.
Jeff.
I think we may be looking at the same picture from different points of view.
I agree that it is released post impact. I don't get the impression of the right wrist rolling under, though. I do see that is flattened, even slightly flexed, in addition to being in a position of ulnar deviation.
Is it possible that the ulnar deviation is simply an effect, rather than a cause (club pulling the right wrist into ul. dev.)? I would think that with the momentum of the club moving at decent speed, it would be pretty difficult to prevent ul. dev. of the right wrist post impact.
You write-: "Is it possible that the ulnar deviation is simply an effect, rather than a cause (club pulling the right wrist into ul. dev.)? I would think that with the momentum of the club moving at decent speed, it would be pretty difficult to prevent ul. dev. of the right wrist post impact."
That's how I think of the situation. I think of the right wrist's ulnar deviation action as being passive (reactive to other forces) rather than being active (due to active muscle contractile forces within the right upper limb).
Pistol - I think that I may possibly understand your right hand karate chop action better.
You are seemingly describing a right wrist uncocking motion whereby the right wrist (while still bent) moves from a level position to an unccocked position (ulnar-deviated position).
If my understanding is correct, then I agree that the right wrist uncocks in Hogan's swing. However, I believe that i) the right wrist always uncocks in all good golfers' swings during the release of power accumulator #3 and that ii) the right wrist uncocking phenomenon is primarily a passive phenomenon. It is my understanding that during release of power accumulator #3, the wrists have to roll as the clubshaft comes into a straight-in-line alignment with the left arm, and that the primary power source for this phenomenon is the club's inherent momentum acquired during the release of power accumulator #2. I therefore think of the release of power accumulator #3 as being a "transfer power" phenomenon, rather than being primarily due to an active right hand uncocking action. I would be interested in learning of Yoda's opinion regarding this matter, and also whether he thinks that it relates to Hogan's statement that he wished he had "three right hands".
Bigwill - I can understand the idea of an "intent" to release the right wrist bend without actually releasing it. However, I think that the right wrist is actually released during the release of power accumulator #3, but that it is not released due to a right wrist palmar flexion action, but rather due to a right wrist ulnar-deviation action.
Here is a photo of Trevor Immleman during the followthrough phase of the swing.
One gains the "impression" that right hand is rolling under, and I think that it's merely due to fact that the right wrist passively deviates ulnarly during the final stage of the club's release action.
Jeff.
Nice photo Jeff and yes Immelmann gets a small amount showing when it exits shoulders on a dtl view and you are right it never really rolls under so he is more passive but i suspect some amount of active right hand participation don't you wonder why hogan had a tonne of it
Pistol - you wrote-: "---but i suspect some amount of active right hand participation don't you wonder why hogan had a tonne of it".
I am amazed that you can infer the presence of active right hand muscle action simply by looking at that photo of Trevor Immelman, and I am equally amazed that you can conclude that Hogan had a tonne of active right hand action in his swing - simply by observing a swing video of his swing.
In terms of what represents active right hand action in Hogan's swing, you now seem to be referring to an active right wrist ulnar deviation uncocking action. Even if I were to accept your argument that active right forearm muscle were involved in Hogan's swing, the muscles that produce that particular right wrist 'karate-chop' action must be the forearm muscles that ulnarly deviate the wrist.
Here is a photo showing the forearm muscles that produce ulnar deviation of the wrist.
The muscles colored in yellow represent the two forearm muscles that produce ulnar deviation of the wrist (1 = extensor carpi ulnaris; 2 = flexor carpi ulnaris). In terms of the volume of forearm muscle bulk, they represent only a small fraction of total forearm muscle bulk. I, therefore, cannot imagine how they can contribute much to swing power through the impact zone - even if they are actively contracting to their maximum degree.
Whatever Hogan meant by "three right hands", I would be amazed to learn that he was referring to 3 x the forearm muscle power contributed by those two forearm muscles.
Here is a photo showing the forearm muscles that produce ulnar deviation of the wrist.
The muscles colored in yellow represent the two forearm muscles that produce ulnar deviation of the wrist (1 = extensor carpi ulnaris; 2 = flexor carpi ulnaris). In terms of the volume of forearm muscle bulk, they represent only a small fraction of total forearm muscle bulk. I, therefore, cannot imagine how they can contribute much to swing power through the impact zone - even if they are actively contracting to their maximum degree.
Whatever Hogan meant by "three right hands", I would be amazed to learn that he was referring to 3 x the forearm muscle power contributed by those two forearm muscles.
"Toto . . . We're not in Kansas anymore!"
-- Dorothy The Wizard of Oz
And Homer Kelley would be the first to approve (1-H):
"Because of questions of all kinds, reams of additional detail must be made available -- but separately. And probably endlessly.""
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