[Yoda]

I understand your point lynn and how the none at all refers to a zeroed hip turn (which makes a perfect example), for the backstroke regardless of the delayed downstroke hip action, You were not talking about delayed hip action, but par 71 was, and it is he who posed the question in which u responded. I'm not making a mountain out of a mole hill, but I don't think par71s question was responded regarding the "or none at all" certainly if you were not talking about the delayed hip action (as he was) and instead talking about zero hip turn in the backstroke.

Whip,

With love in my heart, I write this Open Letter to you.

Scrolling through all the posts in this thread, there is no doubt that you have a wonderful understanding . . . of all you understand. You also skillfully articulate that understanding and defend it with passion. Bravo!

But . . . you also have a big missing piece. (Please don't take this last statement and the 'point-counterpoint' in this thread personally; it is how we learn.) And that missing piece was the subject of my first post here (#5); specifically, the Hitter's Angle of Approach Procedure (2-J-3 / B). It is this procedure that necessitated -- indeed required in Homer Kelley's own case -- the Pre-Turned Right Hip.

The Angle of Approach procedure and its derived Angle of Approach Plane Angle dictated that a more "inside" Path be made for the Hands in the Backstroke. That Path had nothing to do with Standard Hip Turn (Hips leading Shoulders) or Delayed Hip Turn (Shoulders leading Hips) or whatever. It had solely to do with Homer Kelley realizing that he had to pre-clear his own Right Hip so that his Hands could take the very Steep (but Inside) Backstroke Path. In so doing , the Clubhead could then COVER (not 'Point at' or 'Trace') the Angle of Approach Plane Line.

And COVERING the Angle of Approach (with the Clubhead) is what the Angle of Approach procedure is all about. If the Clubhead merely 'points' at the Angle of Approach (to the originating, geometric 10-5-A Plane Line), then you would be Tracing it, as if it were a 'normal' Closed Plane Line (10-5-E) with its own unique Angle of Approach (and Attack). And that ain't the case: The Angle of Approach Plane retains the identical Impact and Low Points of the original Geometric Plane Line. As Homer so eloquently (and to most readers, mysteriously) stated in the 6th edition, "There is no Angle of Approach to an Angle of Approach procedure . . . " .

That last quote is not in your book (I understand you have the 4th edition). Nor is it in the 5th. In fact, Section 2-J-3, the player's Visual Equivalents of the true On Plane Angle of Attack and Arc of Attack, did not even exist in the first three editions of The Golfing Machine. These were the things, Homer would say, that "seeped through slowly". As the Good Lord gave him more time, he wrote them down.

Section 2-J-3 was introduced in the 4th edition and revised extensively over the next four years in the 5th and 6th editions. Still, he wasn't satisfied, and he continued to tweak the verbiage. A final version (transcribed from revisions he left) appeared in the 7th edition, 23 years after his death. None of the information in the earlier editions was wrong, it was just that Homer tried desperately in so many different ways to get the same points across to us . . . points that to him seemed so self-evident and simple, but which he learned we simply could not understand.

Personally, I think mastery of the two Visual Equivalents and their two procedures (Swinger's Arc of Approach and Hitter's Angle of Approach) requires an understanding of Section 2-J-3 in each of the editions 4, 5, 6, and 7. If you don't have those editions, well, you don't have them. One more reason to search my archives.

Putting a red ribbon around our personal give-and-take over the last couple of days, the Pre-Turned Right Hip is not so much a Delayed Hip Action procedure as it is an enabling Angle of Approach procedure.

For 'the rest of us' -- if you've read this far -- I know this post sounds like a bunch of gobbledygook. To which I can only say, in its defense, that it is correct and that it will be worthwhile to those whose journey takes them there. Knowing that, I can sleep. Otherwise . . .

I've wasted an hour of my life.