[Mike O]

The legs plant and the lower part of the spine pivots a bit and changes directions a split second before the upper spine, arms, and club have finished their backswing. This leg/lower spine action serves two purposes: It puts the brakes on the upper spine-arms-club backswing and it pushes into the ground to create the groundforce that the arms and hands can then transmit in a different direction, if desired, by lowering, forming, and aiming a harness or "power package". The initial leg plant and slight lower spine pivot to effect the braking action and groundforce production then slows down so that energy can flow into the prepared arms, hands, and club. The arms, hands, and club then swing through the ball past the pivot and then reaccelerate the slowed pivot to the finish. Horizontal hinge action typically accelerates the pivot to a fuller more rotateded finish than angled or vertical hinge action.

Based on the above, one could convincingly argue that the pivot precedes and sets up the start down, storage, delivery, and release of the power package, but one could also convincingly argue that start down, storage, delivery, and release are muscularly handled by the arms once the plant and pivot have supplied the braking action, groundforce production, and subsequent slow down necessary for the arms and hands to then muscularly form a harness and transmit the groundforce. Until the force is transmitted by the arms and hands, a golfer has not swung to hit the ball yet. So the arms harness and transmit the force on the downswing and the slowed pivot reaccelerates and follows thereafter. Arms initiate downswing force transmission and the pivot follows, but the pivot has already accelerated a bit and then slowed to facilitate this.

First pivot then arms to initiate, generate, and complete the actual strike of the ball or the other way around? Either explanation works for me. I just need to know someone's definitions of when the backswing stops, when the downswing begins, and when the actual muscular force to strike the ball is transmitted. I usually prefer to say that the legs and pivot stop the backswing and create the groundforce that the arms can then harness and transmit to initiate the strike of the ball. Since I can check my swing and decide not to strike the ball after my downswing leg and pivot action has occurred, then I really do feel that my bent right arm receives the ultimate message from my brain to initiate the strike of the ball.

I predict that there will always be two sides to this argument and both are right, but I do believe that the legs are the engine and the arms and hands are the transmission. The muscularly active and reactive pivot is necessary for both the engine and the transmission to be effective.

Einstein said that answers to complex questions like this are usually simple, elegant, and predictable, but in this case I believe in HL Mencken who said that "For every complex problem there is a simple solution. And it's always wrong." Both sides in this debate should be prepared to be wrong, right, or neither wrong nor right depending on the premises and context of the argument.

Probably a waste of effort for me to post this- but sometimes you just can't help but see potential and try to help it.

First, Really a very intelligent and thoughtful analysis of some of the interactions and facts happening in the golf swing- excellent. You are obviously intelligent and motivated.

It's also unique that the unlabeled problem in your post (as I see it) is summarized in your last paragraph. I call it a problem because it is and will limit how far you can take your ideas and knowledge. Without getting too deep- Epistemology is the 2nd branch of Philosophy- the study of knowldege- "How do you know what you know?" and whether consciously or subconsciously you've chosen H L Mencken/ Friedich Nietzsche/ Analytical Philosophy versus the inherent principles of knowledge that Einstein used based on Aristotle. It's also those principles - that allowed the level of achievement or lack thereof for each.

Summary- Either you can take my post as a compliment to your very insightful and intelligent post! PM me and I could give you a few ideas of things to read that would make you even better. Or take my post as a complete insult and ban me from the forum. Or finally, just take it as some ego-head rantings and ignore it completely. Or anything in between, either option is fine with me- no matter what I'm sure Bucket will have an insightful follow-up post!

P.S. Here is my condensed version- You've made one mistake in your post- you've chosen Mencken over Einstein.

And Yes, I know- "What does this have to do with Tomasello Swinging motion?!- I'm sure DG will scold me shortly and tell me to create my own thread- and the beat goes on!"