[Mike O]

I do agree that feels can and do change slightly, and that 'getting used to' a feel may alter the spectrum (buffer) of percieved changes/differences in the future. That said, I agree with Homer that one uses "feel" to reproduce, if nothing else by the ability to notice change, to notice 'being off track', more than 'being on track'.

Perspective obviously is a huge factor, where you are coming from influences how you get to where you are going. Certainly the flat vs upright changes would feel different depending on which direction you are going, just as in the classic example of placing one hand in hot water, one in cold and then moving both to warm water.

Feel may be relative, but it is critical to the feedback loop in learning.

EdZ,
Thanks for the reply- as that's what I asked for was feedback.

1) EDZ Quote:"I do agree that feels can and do change slightly"

EDZ, I just want to clarify that in my post I was maintaining that certain changes have the ability to have "huge and exciting" feels associated with them, but over time (say a year or two) can come to the point that your not even aware of them- they essentially disappear. That fact points out at least one essential element of feel- that it is not absolute and never changing, and you can't use it if you want a consistent procedure. So I just wanted to make sure that your comment was saying that "you ONLY agree thtat feel can and does change slightly" and not that I was saying that they change slightly- although there are those situations where they also do just change slightly.

2) EDZ Quote: "That said, I agree with Homer that one uses "feel" to reproduce"

Let's clarify what Homer is referrring to, because your quote above is absolutely correct (from the book) but can have completely incorrect assumptions related to it. Homer knew that everyday your feel would be different- that to get your feel for that day you could trace the plane line or use some other exact visual standard to verify what it felt like that day. On the other hand, it's easy to read "let feel reproduce" and think that once you got it correct that you could repeat it everytime with the same feel- that is not what he meant.

In 5-0 page 61, he talks about closing your eyes to be more aware of the of what your hands are doing (by the way I believe that this concept especially resulted or grew out of the fact that his aunt was blind and he learned and saw how she was able to move around etc from personal experience), and then he says in that section "until the Hands no longer consciously monitor the Clubhead or the Body- only themselves. That is what I am elaborating on, in my three posts 1) hand controlled pivot, 2) Integration, 3) What is feel.

EDZ Quote: "Feel may be relative, but it is critical to the feedback loop in learning"
EDZ,
In summary, feel is critical to the feedback loop in learning. But 1) it is a tool to integrate your movement, and 2) when your making a fully coordinated movement- there is a hierarchical relationship between, say in golf, trying to move your hands and be aware of where you want to move them i.e. one's procedure and the fuzzy background of all the feels created by and during that movement. Hand controlled as I described in my first post is first and primary, and any feel(s) are secondary. It's a crucial area to be able to understand- again Homer and I are in agreement- I just elaborated on the concept more.

Mike O.