How does Tom Watson's secret fit in with TGM?

[Irish Maverick]

Is he almost describing spine angle as a fourth hinge action? Thanks.

[drewitgolf]

Watson is describing a 10-13-B Flat Shoulder Turn, but I believe he uses more of a 10-13-A Standard Shoulder Turn when he actually Swings. Why the difference? He doesn't discuss in his "secret talk" component 7-14 Hip Turn which tilts the Shoulder Turn Axis. But the degree to which Mr. Watson put his Right Shoulder on the same Downstroke Plane as the Hands does raise questions and compensations.

[Jeff]

I personally think that Tom Watson's advice on turning the shoulders perpendicularly around the spine is good advice, but that doesn't mean that the the shoulders will turn on the same angle in the downswing as it turned in the backswing - because the spine angle shouldn't remain the same in the downswing. In the downswing, the pelvis shifts left-laterally and that causes the spine to develop increased rightwards spinal tilt (secondary axis tilt). That will cause the right shoulder to move downplane, and rotate less horizontally, in the downswing - compared to the backswing.

Robert Baker demonstrates that point in this swing video lesson.

http://www.golf.com/golf/video/artic...595277,00.html

Note how both Tiger Woods and Ernie Els move their right shoulder downplane in the early downswing.

The following photo shows how the right shoulder moves along the upper hula hoop path, which has a changed axis due to increased rightwards spinal tilt.



Jeff.

[DOCW3]

So what do you believe Homer Kelley intended when he wrote, "a simplified equivalent to 10-13-A" in 10-13-C ROTATED?

[Jeff]

It is my present understanding that Homer meant in 10-13-C that the the shoulders could rotate on the same plane in the backswing and downswing if the waist bend was exactly right.

Here is a photo of Arnold Palmer who has a lot of waist bend and who rotates his shoulders on the same angle in the backswing and downswing.



Palmer has a steep shoulder turn (red line) in the backswing and that line points at the ball-target line. He then rotates his right shoulder down that same line in the downswing.

Hogan, by contrast, had a more flat shoulder turn in the backswing and a steeper shoulder turn in the downswing (10-13-A).

Please correct me if I am wrong.

Jeff.

[drewitgolf]

Jeff,

Looks to me the camara angle is off for Palmer (outside the target line) and can give the impression that he is using a Rotated Shoulder Turn. I have pictures of him with approximately the same waist bend but he is clearly using Standard Shoulder Turn, Flat Back and On-Plane Down .

[Jeff]

OK - if you don't like Arnold Palmer as an example of a golfer who turns his shoulders steeply on the same angle in the backswing as the downswing, how about this next example.

Jeff Ritter's swing.

Do you think that his swing could be classified as a 10-13-C shoulder turn swing?

Jeff.

[12 piece bucket]

http://www.golf.com/golf/video/artic...595277,00.html

Note how both Tiger Woods and Ernie Els move their right shoulder downplane in the early downswing.

Not sure about this . . . . Eldrick MAY do this with a driver but not the irons.

[bantamben1]

yeah i agree watson is talking about 10-13-c rotated shoulder turn. this is the shoulder turn I use in my pattern ever since Mac ogrady showed me this he has been using this component since 1984 if anyone has ever seen that first morad tape in 1986 he goes through a eplanation ofi t similar to watsons.

[KevCarter]

yeah i agree watson is talking about 10-13-c rotated shoulder turn. this is the shoulder turn I use in my pattern ever since Mac ogrady showed me this he has been using this component since 1984 if anyone has ever seen that first morad tape in 1986 he goes through a eplanation ofi t similar to watsons.

bantamben,

I find that very interesting. Since discovering the change from Standard to Rotated in both basic hitting and swinging in the 7th edition from the 6th, I have been wondering about the merits. I wonder if that is a change Mr. Kelley would have agreed with? It seems most experts I have been reading teach 10-13-A, or maybe thats just my perception?

Personally, I like the "feel" of 10-13-C, but don't fully understand the implications of using either... so much to learn!

Kevin