"What does aligned with the left arm mean or how does that help us define something important if the left wrist motion "always aligned with the left arm" whenever it is flat.
I think that the wrist cock can be described as "aligned with the left arm" when cocking and uncocking of the left wrist is not assocaiated with a tendancy of the radius and ulna to rotate (pronate or supinate) during the cock/uncock...it is the position of mechanical advantage that the arm and wrist fall into if the club is held in a neutral grip, the sweetspot held fixed and the wrist tries to uncock....
1. Left wrist condition
a) Mechanically flat left wrist / geometrically flat left wrist
b) Bent left wrist
2. Sweetspot Plane line alignment
a) square to target (10-5-A)
b) out to right field (10-5-E)
3. Clubface alignment with respect to face of plane
a) Fully turned to face of plane (ie. no "squaring" or roll of clubface prior to uncocking)
b) clubface rolls off face of plane prior to uncocking
All of these criteria have been specified since my first post.
It strikes me that 1(a) + 2(a) + 3(a) = impossible
1(a) and 2(a) require the clubface to roll off the face of the plane 3(b)
2(a) and 3(a) require a bent left wrist 1(b)
1(a) and 3(a) require a plane line out to right field 2(b)
So in Jeffs Photos I would say that they are off the square plane line (maybe heading back towards it at this point of backswing) ...but photos and parallax prove nothing...just lead to debate... the answers to this question lies in principles...I think...I am slightly confused but sure that the answers are nearby!
what a sweet spot roll off the plane? ...
Edit: ok.. Are you trying to say sequential and overlapping release of accumulator?.. Standard vs single wrist action.
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Edit: ok.. Are you trying to say sequential and overlapping release of accumulator?.. Standard vs single wrist action.
I am saying that the clubface might need to roll towards square (ie. less open) prior to uncocking...so a muddling of the sequenced release.ie. out of sequence 3 before 2 and then 3 completes...
I have always understood sequenced release to be clubface open(turned to plane) at top/end....and remains the same degree of "open/turned to plane" until release point when it uncocks . After uncocking it then rolls towards square.
I have suggested that one (?only) way to maintain a geometrically flat left wrist and a square plane line requires that there is some clubface rolling BEFORE the uncocking.
When you do the exercise that Bucket has written about where you practise hammering in a vertical plane....stand upright, left arm outstretched, left wrist cocked...now raise and lower left arm in front of you....you can feel accumulator 2 release...you can really hammer the ground.
In this scenario, the left shoulder is in the same plane as the left wrist cock/uncock motion.
Do the same motion but on an inclined plane with the same wrist condition...you get the feel of acc.2 release and then acc 3. release...a sequenced release....
all fine in the limited scenarios - it gives a very useful feel of sequenced release... but the planeline or the wrist condition or the sequence must be different in a golf swing because, unlike in these exercises, the left arm is not on the same plane as the pp3/sweetspot .
That is where I am stuck...it is different to what I used to think after 2 years, 5 editions read and many hours on a variety of TGM related websites...but I cannot square the circle any more and hence the thread...I may have some incorrect assumptions along the way...if so then kindly point them out...thanks.
Do you understand about the geometrically flat left wrist?
"flat" left wrist means the arm and clubshaft is In line if seen from the front at impact fix and it serves as a guidance. Irregardless on how bent the wrist is . and how big the Accumulator 3 is.
MOST of the time, with a 30* pre-rolled strong grip , ie even 10-2-B , and a Mechanically flat left wrist, the arm and clubshaft never see the inline condition , ie hand too ahead of the club..and club is too delofted. Thus it becomes a geometrically " ARCHED " left wrist.
I think at 10-2-B , the wrist should be slightly mechanically bent to reach Inline condition.. at impact. The Only time the wrist should be mechanically flat should be when the left hand grip is wrist exactly at around "vertical" and the left thumb barely on the Aft side. This is also the point where the Accumulator 3 is least with a grip under heel type of condition. ie high hands location.
the confusions of the bend , flat , arched...
I used to see "Flat" left wrist vs Plane as 2D plane instead of 3 D plane .. the arm and Extensor is pointing straight downward.. and wrist is cocking straight outward and downward on plane to maintain this angle of Plane Vs Arm straight down or slightly outward,
Not sure if that helps.
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Latest incubator: Finally appreciate why Hogan wrote 19 pages on GRIP. I bet he could write another 40 pages.
When I use the term upcocking, I am only referring to the process of radial deviation of the wrist. It has nothing to do with the "backswing" per se. I should just stick to HK's use of the term "cocking" and stop using the generic term "upcocking".
I cannot really understand the "issue" that Golfbulldog is exploring. He seems to be exploring the relationship of the left wrist cock action relative to a single linear plane (like a glass pane which is only generally representative of the clubshaft plane in the downswing). I believe that the left wrist cock action can only be perfectly in plane with that glass pane (in a linear sense) at a single moment in time - when the curved path of the left wrist cocking action (left arm flying wedge action) is exactly on that glass pane and parallel to that glass pane "somewhere" in mid-downswing. That "somewhere" point primarily depends on the rate of rotation of the left arm flying wedge during the downswing relative to the degree of dropping of the hands down to the ground in each individual golfer.
The point that I was making about the curved left wrist cocking plane and its relationship to the clubshaft only has relevance to the intrinsic relationships within the left arm flying wedge unit - when the clubshaft is at right angles to the left arm unit, and the left wrist is always flat, then the clubshaft must always travel in the same curved plane as the left arm. This "curved-on plane" inter-relationship between the left arm and clubshaft must change dramatically during a swivel action when forearm action causes the flat left wrist/hand unit to supinate (close) relative to the overall left arm/hand movement arc.
Here is an example.
This series of images represents the release swivel action. The clubshaft is swinging down the inclined plane, but the left wrist uncocking planar action is totally unrelated to that inclined plane - because the entire flat left wrist-hand unit is swiveling counterclockwise during this time period.
The general point that I am attempting to make is that relating the i) plane of left wrist uncocking action to ii) a single inclined clubshaft plane (generally represented by a glass pane placed on the ball-target line baseline and inclined at a certain angle) is meaningless, because it depends on iii) the degree of rotation of the left arm and iv) the degree of dropping of the hands per unit time during the downswing, which is individual-golfer dependent.
10-3-F This term refers to any "Wrist-Action-Only" type of
Stroke using Grip Type 10-2-D for Angled or Vertical Hinging and 10-2-B
for Horizontal Hinging. ...
take a look at the picture in that chapter.at the relationship of the arm vs plane...thats how the arm should be.vs plane.. And notice the left arm is below the right at follow through... ? It looks like a pivotless stroke.. so.. with pivot stroke its gonna be a little different look but you get the general idea how the arm vs plane works..
During dynamic motion.. it may look a winnie bit different. because of the PIVOT. CF throwout.. there is no real circle but arcs. Not forgeting how the pictures / angles/Frame FPS is taken..can be very misleading...
its all in the book..and TGM RULES !
__________________
God :God is love.
Latest incubator: Finally appreciate why Hogan wrote 19 pages on GRIP. I bet he could write another 40 pages.
When I use the term upcocking, I am only referring to the process of radial deviation of the wrist. It has nothing to do with the "backswing" per se. I should just stick to HK's use of the term "cocking" and stop using the generic term "upcocking".
I cannot really understand the "issue" that Golfbulldog is exploring. He seems to be exploring the relationship of the left wrist cock action relative to a single linear plane (like a glass pane which is only generally representative of the clubshaft plane in the downswing). I believe that the left wrist cock action can only be perfectly in plane with that glass pane (in a linear sense) at a single moment in time - when the curved path of the left wrist cocking action (left arm flying wedge action) is exactly on that glass pane and parallel to that glass pane "somewhere" in mid-downswing. That "somewhere" point primarily depends on the rate of rotation of the left arm flying wedge during the downswing relative to the degree of dropping of the hands down to the ground in each individual golfer.
The point that I was making about the curved left wrist cocking plane and its relationship to the clubshaft only has relevance to the intrinsic relationships within the left arm flying wedge unit - when the clubshaft is at right angles to the left arm unit, and the left wrist is always flat, then the clubshaft must always travel in the same curved plane as the left arm. This "curved-on plane" inter-relationship between the left arm and clubshaft must change dramatically during a swivel action when forearm action causes the flat left wrist/hand unit to supinate (close) relative to the overall left arm/hand movement arc.
Here is an example.
This series of images represents the release swivel action. The clubshaft is swinging down the inclined plane, but the left wrist uncocking planar action is totally unrelated to that inclined plane - because the entire flat left wrist-hand unit is swiveling counterclockwise during this time period.
The general point that I am attempting to make is that relating the i) plane of left wrist uncocking action to ii) a single inclined clubshaft plane (generally represented by a glass pane placed on the ball-target line baseline and inclined at a certain angle) is meaningless, because it depends on iii) the degree of rotation of the left arm and iv) the degree of dropping of the hands per unit time during the downswing, which is individual-golfer dependent.
Jeff.
Jeff,
Everything you said in your post makes sense to me.
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