I believe you are creating the open clubface as you start taking the club back at address. If you look down at your club as you start your takeaway you should see a clubface that is slightly closed to the path you're taking the club back on. A club face that points slightly to the right of the target and a back swing that at doesn't even think about going to the outside of that line is a good start.
As you proceed back you need not be afraid to let the face open.
It is important that you start the back swing as a proper swing motion. Use your feet, hips and shoulders and not only your arms to get the path right. No cheating. You want a glitchfree back swing that sets you up to come down the way you went back. You may have to adjust your shoulders and head position at address before you're set to do a square takeaway and a drawish downswing.
There are a components and component variations and component compensations that goes straight to the heart of doing the geometric motion that I described above. And there are several here on LBG who can help you with the finer details of all components involved. I hope some of them will chime in, because your situation is very common.
And there are many possible paths to lasting improvements. A teaching pro might choose to address the symptoms directly or rebuild to a better stroke piece by piece. In which case you should go with the pro.
Being picky about the address and takeaway never hurts in any case, IMO.
Glad to hear I at least got your brand of underwear right....I guess I'd better turn it over to Amen from here.
I've often wonderd if right hand low in hockey tends one towards Drive Loading for golf? No conclusions just food for thought.
Look at Al MaCinnis, owner one of the all time best slap shots........active right elbow thrusting against the aft of the shaft. And finally the great man himself Borje Salming in follow through he even has his forearm on plane , the equivalent of a Right Forearm Flying Wedge (if he was shooting right).
Interesting that you mention this. I have thought about it aswell -(the reason why I mentioned "right hand down on a hockey stick) -, and it would be interesting to hear some theories.
I can say this much. I started playing golf as a hitter. Without knowing I was hitting. I went to a pro Late april this year, and thats when I changed to "swinging".
By that time I didn't know the terms as hitting, or swinging. My pro told me, that I should swing with my left side, and let the right arm basically come along for the ride. And he also stated that I can't play golf as I play hockey. (Right arm muscular thrust). "No low handicaper does that" (His words, not mine). Not knowing better, I blindly belived that was THE way.
And thats when I started trying to swing, and trust CF... I don't trust it because I can't control it. That might also add to my steering.. Ofcourse, I realise that, the reason I feel I can't control it, is very much because of my flawed fundamentals.
I started researching about the left side driving the swing. And eventually, I ended up with TGM. And later, I ended up here. And now I know, Right arm thrust is a perfectly sound way to hit a golf ball. I feel like a hitter. But I'm not sure I would want to mess up my swing even MORE by starting to hit. On te other hand, maybe it would be a good thing to try something different. Either way, I'm as usual talking too much, trying to understand things, that I dont understand/or that I am not qualified to analyse.
Quote:
Christian,
You seem to understand your issue pretty well.
I believe you are creating the open clubface as you start taking the club back at address. If you look down at your club as you start your takeaway you should see a clubface that is slightly closed to the path you're taking the club back on. A club face that points slightly to the right of the target and a back swing that at doesn't even think about going to the outside of that line is a good start.
As you proceed back you need not be afraid to let the face open.
It is important that you start the back swing as a proper swing motion. Use your feet, hips and shoulders and not only your arms to get the path right. No cheating. You want a glitchfree back swing that sets you up to come down the way you went back. You may have to adjust your shoulders and head position at address before you're set to do a square takeaway and a drawish downswing.
There are a components and component variations and component compensations that goes straight to the heart of doing the geometric motion that I described above. And there are several here on LBG who can help you with the finer details of all components involved. I hope some of them will chime in, because your situation is very common.
And there are many possible paths to lasting improvements. A teaching pro might choose to address the symptoms directly or rebuild to a better stroke piece by piece. In which case you should go with the pro.
Being picky about the address and takeaway never hurts in any case, IMO
Thanks for taking your time to write this. Appriciated.
I put two things in bold.
For the first bold part, I can't say much more then THANK YOU! You explained this perfectly, and I think I can really take this in, and work on it.
For the second part. I have been very busy latley just trying to take the club back with my right fore arm. And trying not to do a "one piece takeaway" And probably leaving the syncing of the pivot out in the cold. (Uneducated hands...) And also, I think my right upper arm is losing it's connection with the right side, pretty early in the backswing..
Again. Thanks for taking the time reading, and replying.
As for my lengthy posts... I guess its because I don't have anyone to talk golf with.
I'll try to keep it shorter and more readable.
Interesting that you mention this. I have thought about it aswell -(the reason why I mentioned "right hand down on a hockey stick) -, and it would be interesting to hear some theories.
I can say this much. I started playing golf as a hitter. Without knowing I was hitting. I went to a pro Late april this year, and thats when I changed to "swinging".
By that time I didn't know the terms as hitting, or swinging. My pro told me, that I should swing with my left side, and let the right arm basically come along for the ride. And he also stated that I can't play golf as I play hockey. (Right arm muscular thrust). "No low handicaper does that" (His words, not mine). Not knowing better, I blindly belived that was THE way.
And thats when I started trying to swing, and trust CF... I don't trust it because I can't control it. That might also add to my steering.. Ofcourse, I realise that, the reason I feel I can't control it, is very much because of my flawed fundamentals.
I started researching about the left side driving the swing. And eventually, I ended up with TGM. And later, I ended up here. And now I know, Right arm thrust is a perfectly sound way to hit a golf ball. I feel like a hitter. But I'm not sure I would want to mess up my swing even MORE by starting to hit. On te other hand, maybe it would be a good thing to try something different. Either way, I'm as usual talking too much, trying to understand things, that I dont understand/or that I am not qualified to analyse.
I did see some active Right Arm thrust in your swing, that's why I asked whether you were right handed. Its very natural to use your dominant hand and arm. In fact thats why Homer listed Drive Loading first. 12-1.
Hitting , swinging, one isnt better than the other the choice is yours. But thrusting can be a death move to a Swinger hence the golf magazines CF centric view on everything. When I see new golfers, kids, women I see them thrusting. I see thrusters in tournaments , good golfers.......guys who Ive discovered dont read golf magazines that much. I make a point of asking. They just "get the job done" and are relatively oblivious to golf instruction. To their benefit by and large. Imagine taking some guy who is a tournament golfer and getting him to Swing?
Im not saying to go back to Hitting .......the choice is yours. But you landed in the right place. Only TGM properly distinguishes Hitting and Swinging.
One little tip to think about as you wait to get together with Amen Corner......whether you're swinging or hitting think of the golf swing as the straightening of the right arm (either actively or passively, hitting or swinging) but with the right hand held in the amount of bend you establish at address. In other words dont straighten the right arm and unbend the right wrist. The flip you mention , the loss of the flat left wrist from a right side perspective is the loss of the bent right wrist. You dont necessarily need to keep it fully bent , just the amount you establish at address. Think of it as "frozen" is that helps you. Try it in little chips , feel its geometric simplicity , then little pitches , then little mid irons..... Hitting or swinging (active right arm extension or not)
Homer called this "golf's unique move". The reason good athletes from other sports suffer while learning golf. When you throw a ball you fire the right hand.....not good for golf. So straighten the right arm without unbending the right wrist.
I did see some active Right Arm thrust in your swing, that's why I asked whether you were right handed. Its very natural to use your dominant hand and arm. In fact thats why Homer listed Drive Loading first. 12-1.
One isnt better than the other the choice is yours. But thrusting can be a death move to a Swinger hence the golf magazines CF centric view on everything. When I see new golfers, kids, women I see them thrusting. I see thrusters in tournaments , good golfers.......guys who Ive discovered dont read golf magazines that much. I make a point of asking. They just "get the job done" and are relatively oblivious to golf instruction. To their benefit by and large. Imagine taking some guy who is a tournament golfer and getting him to Swing?
Im not saying to go back to Hitting .......the choice is yours. But you landed in the right place. Only TGM properly distinguishes Hitting and Swinging.
One little tip to think about as you wait to get together with Amen Corner......whether you're swinging or hitting think of the golf swing as the straightening of the right arm (either actively or passively, hitting or swinging) but with the right hand held in the amount of bend you establish at address. In other words dont straighten the right arm and unbend the right wrist. The flip you mention , the loss of the flat left wrist from a right side perspective is the maintenance of the bent right wrist. Not necessarily fully bent , just the amount you establish at address. Try it in little chips , feel its geometric simplicity , then little pitches , then little mid irons..... Hitting or swinging (active right arm extension or not)
Homer called this "golf's unique move". The reason good athletes from other sports suffer while learning golf. When you throw a ball you fire the right hand.....not good for golf. So straighten the right arm without unbending the right wrist.
Good post, thank you!
That right forearm thrust is not intended. I didn't even realise I had it. But I don't doubt you a single bit. I have a VERY hard time getting my elbow into a pitch elbow position. I always end up with what I _think_ is a punch elbow. Atleast it's nowhere near pitch as described in the book. Wich is what I'm striving for.
To clarify, I am TRYING to drag load. (Its obviously not working).
The bold part is part of what I have been working on after seeing my swing on that video. I can't think about a FLW, even if that's what im working on. For it to work, I must learn this mechanic by feeling that my right wrist is bent.(Rather: Learn this FLW "feel", from what I know is a BRW, if that makes sense) Rather than trying to "feel" a FLW since that feel i have at the moment, is wrong.
And i say once again, I am progressing, and I am not flipping the club near this amount any longer; at least not if i compare compression over these few weeks after the video. The 4i is once again my primary tee-shot club and it no longer has this insane trajectory. (When I do stop thinking about the BRW, I do of course flip.)
As for my pivot. It does have an unhealthy amount of forward hip slide, doesnt it? I think I would go about calling it a sway. But am I wrong? This is something thats eating me.(I know my head should be stationary, and I know my left foot should be planted put, and not roll/point more towards the target as it does in my followthrough). Im right now, curious about the slide. Cause it is something that I can't get out of my head.
I am working the basic motion in my hotel room. Every evening! And I can't help myself practicing the takeaway at the moment, after reading what Bernt had to say about that.
And, on a sidenote, no I won't go to hitting the full swing right now. I am hitting my chips and lobs, and shorter shots, because I find it easier to get consistent contact. I am going to learn to swing through a total motion first.
Then, maybe...Probably. Hopefully, hit!
Last edited by Christian : 10-18-2010 at 04:59 PM.
The Hips should Slide towards to the target for full shots. With a centered Head.
Go see Amen Corner , I bet he'll greatly simplify your movement, your motion.
I'd try the Wild Bill Melhourne thing of swinging in two directions continually, while marching McDonald style ......no balls at first. Put one on tape and see how great it looks when you just look at the normal golf swing portion of the continuous motion.
Here's Lynn hitting a mid iron ....he makes it look pretty simple doesnt he? Length of swing and effort do not necessarily translate into distance. Try hitting some half seven irons and see if they go just as far....or farther. Put them on tape and see if your body motion is still bigger than Lynn's. It probably will be. Homer said to swing slower and shorter until you start to lose distance and then go back a notch. Good advice for all of us.
When you're learning golf there is tendency to make it all about turning, Homer observed how the body provides only the initial acceleration in the Downswing before passing the momentum out the arms which pass it to the club. There is a sequence to it. See 6-M-1. Feet, knees, hip, shoulders, arms, club, ball. This sequence creates the look of simplicity and balance that you see in a good golfers swing. Effortless power.
The Hips should Slide towards to the target for full shots. With a centered Head.
Go see Amen Corner , I bet he'll greatly simplify your movement, your motion.
I'd try the Wild Bill Melhourne thing of swinging in two directions continually, while marching McDonald style ......no balls at first. Put one on tape and see how great it looks when you just look at the normal golf swing portion of the continuous motion.
Here's Lynn hitting a mid iron ....he makes it look pretty simple doesnt he? Length of swing and effort do not necessarily translate into distance. Try hitting some half seven irons and see if they go just as far....or farther. Put them on tape and see if your body motion is still bigger than Lynn's. It probably will be. Homer said to swing slower and shorter until you start to lose distance and then go back a notch. Good advice for all of us.
When you're learning golf there is tendency to make it all about turning, Homer observed how the body provides only the initial acceleration in the Downswing before passing the momentum out the arms which pass it to the club. There is a sequence to it. See 6-M-1. Feet, knees, hip, shoulders, arms, club, ball. This sequence creates the look of simplicity and balance that you see in a good golfers swing. Effortless power.
I read your post before, and after edit. I liked both versions. Because, I do understand that I have way too much movement in my swing, making it too much about having a good day. I usually don't score crap on what feels like a bad day, but I often leave the golf course frustrated with my swing. And that's when I start implementing things in my swing, without thinking about it.
As you say, my eight iron does indeed go just as far with what feels to me like a half swing. Truth is what I feel is half, is probably in reality, 3/4 or more. On that video it looks like I'm trying to kill the ball. I'm not! (consciously). My subconscious probably tries to really, really kill it.
Thanks a bunch for the good advice.
And... I know this, I do! The question is WHY haven't I tried "slowing" things down before, except on pretty... sporadic occasions? Probably, because the criticism/suggestions wasn't aimed at me. And I have probably been in denial!
Will try the Macdonald, and the Wild Bill drill(s)!
Once again. Yeap, I don't doubt Amen will fix me. Just wish I could make that lesson happen now! Being realistic about it. I'm just aiming towards "somewhere before Christmas". And that's probably optimistic.
Thanks O.B. I appreciate you taking your time answering my somewhat "newbie" questions. A newbie is what I am though, so I feel no shame in that.
Im not a teaching pro just a golf nut with a low handicap .....Amen Corner will help you a lot. Its good to know what your tendencies are .......they come back to haunt you every now and then. Now would be a good time to identify them before you ingrain them further.
As a junior , which is a long time ago now, I used to over rotate my left arm going back, to the point my shaft was almost parallel to the ground. From there to get my hands up I had to lift them and hard. My body turn and my arms were out of sinc. My handicap has gone from whatever it was then to the plus side , the years have seen my waist expand and my hair start to grey, my swing is really really different now .......but that lifting and over turning of the body comes back to visit me every now and then. Old bad habits die a hard death, if you are able to kill them that is.
Trying to simplify things , getting several things done with one action , reducing ......would be a good thing to consider. Homer's magic of the right forearm ......the bending right elbow is one avenue to look at.
I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express- so I will offer a perspective based upon only that qualification.
First, try this drill and only read beyond after you try it.
You mention hockey- grip the club normal with your left hand- place your right hand on the lower end of the grip and half on the shaft- ( a split grip) NOW - take a swing with but do not let the club release through the impact area ( use your right hand to stop release and hold the left wristcock)-
What happened???
My experience is - the force is enormous and if you swing hard the shaft will rip out of your right hand.
So what?- well we have proven to ourself that the club is going to come around without help so trust it to do that.
Take that feeling- which is the practice swing feeling also- to the ball. Swing your hands- be indifferent to the ball. dont care if you miss.. suddenly your divots will move 6" forward, your followthrough will happen by itself.
Now, you know its just the hands. Swinging or hitting Just the hands hanging on (clamping) the club handle.
Get that first then fix the other problems- As a smart man said- "or nothing else matters much".
Im not a teaching pro just a golf nut with a low handicap .....Amen Corner will help you a lot. Its good to know what your tendencies are .......they come back to haunt you every now and then. Now would be a good time to identify them before you ingrain them further.
As a junior , which is a long time ago now, I used to over rotate my left arm going back, to the point my shaft was almost parallel to the ground. From there to get my hands up I had to lift them and hard. My body turn and my arms were out of sinc. My handicap has gone from whatever it was then to the plus side , the years have seen my waist expand and my hair start to grey, my swing is really really different now .......but that lifting and over turning of the body comes back to visit me every now and then. Old bad habits die a hard death, if you are able to kill them that is.
Trying to simplify things , getting several things done with one action , reducing ......would be a good thing to consider. Homer's magic of the right forearm ......the bending right elbow is one avenue to look at.
I am trying to, as you say, reduce movement. I'm posting a new vid, as I feel it might be worth discussing something that's more up to date. Even though my problems probably still are the same.
Quote:
Christian,
I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express- so I will offer a perspective based upon only that qualification.
First, try this drill and only read beyond after you try it.
You mention hockey- grip the club normal with your left hand- place your right hand on the lower end of the grip and half on the shaft- ( a split grip) NOW - take a swing with but do not let the club release through the impact area ( use your right hand to stop release and hold the left wristcock)-
What happened???
My experience is - the force is enormous and if you swing hard the shaft will rip out of your right hand.
So what?- well we have proven to ourself that the club is going to come around without help so trust it to do that.
Take that feeling- which is the practice swing feeling also- to the ball. Swing your hands- be indifferent to the ball. dont care if you miss.. suddenly your divots will move 6" forward, your followthrough will happen by itself.
Now, you know its just the hands. Swinging or hitting Just the hands hanging on (clamping) the club handle.
Get that first then fix the other problems- As a smart man said- "or nothing else matters much".
Just my opinion
HB
This sounds like a great drill to me. Will try it as soon as possible! And report my results.
In the meantime.
I have been practising a few things of which we talked about in this thread.
However, it's the first time at the range since reading all the good suggestions from you guys.
What have I been trying to do?
*Take the club back on a more inside path.
*FLW
*Reducing movement.
What do I see when I look at the video?
(First of all, I know I'm not qualified to elaborate on this, but since it's my own swing, I'm not hurting anyone else... so I'll take a stab)
Well, basically, that I failed at all three points. But the swing looks and plays better.
(imo). Im not saying GOOD. Im just saying a bit better.
It disappoints me to see that I still flip the club like a madhatter. What it looks like to me, is just better timing of the flip. Right, wrong?
Distance is better, trajectory better...
But, do I think its a good impact position... No.
My path is a tiny bit better, atleast judging from ball flight.
Path: Improved a little, tiny bit, but not anywhere near OK.
Also, I have a too narrow stance in that first swing. My bad. I was freezing though. :P
I also have a WAY too long backswing for my 8iron. I was thinking "three quarters" when I swung the club. Clearly, it did NOT work. I'm gonna have to think half, or 1/3.
So reducing movements... FAILED. Aswell.
Anyway, except for the narrow stance, which was a mistake that I USUALLY don't make, unless I'm playing short shots, this swing video, is up to date.
And for camera position. I suck at getting it at the right angles. I can't blame my gf this time since I had a tripod...
Christian - you've got the basics of a very solid motion there.
A few things to focus on that should help
At impact fix, check to see that your right forearm and shaft are in line from down the line, and that the right wrist is 'level' - this may feel like your hands are higher at address
During your swing - use your right arm to push/extend your left - extensor action
this will really tighten up your swing, and you may find that you'll only be able to swing at 3/4's
A drill to feel this is to grab your left wrist with your right hand/palm and feel that extension, pulling the left arm with the right - during the entire motion
This will also get your pivot moving more through the shot, so you feel like you can stand tall and hold your finish until the ball stops - a fantastic way to check your balance (as is some eyes closed swings back/through with a heavy club)
You also should try some drills allowing the left forearm to rotate through the shot - with the left hand grip you have now, you may hit some hooks, but that is ok - try some left arm only motions back/through letting the left forearm rotate (watch face facing the ground) - this is an extreme - but it is an important step to allowing your pivot to move through
As far as your backswing path - focus on the inside corner of the ball, not the back of the ball - like you are kicking a soccer ball
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