Return of the Snap Release?

[MizunoJoe]

Obviously a very nice swing, and clearly Mr. Doyle is a wonderful teacher. Everybody has their own preferences, I can't imagine playing with or teaching a swing that moves off the ball and is pivot controlled hands. Probably what Mr. Bucket meant, just not our cup of tea.

It's all about the tripod, hands controlled pivot, and The Magic Of The Right Forearm for me...

Kevin

On the contrary, in video #17 at :19, he says "you're gonna monitor through the right forefinger". In another clip, he tells him to keep his mind in his hands. Ben teaches the hands controlled pivot! Throughout these clips, Ben talks about aiming point, which implies hand control.

You are saying that the shoulder turn takeaway is pivot controlled hands, but that the pivot driving the hands in the DS is not. If the pivot executing the BS is pivot control, then the pivot executing the DS would also have to be pivot control - you can't have it both ways. If you can direct the hands to a specific location with a fanning forearm, you can also direct them there with a shoulder turn. And wherever the hands end up in the BS, in either case, the mind is in them and knows where they are, and can then instruct the pivot to deliver them to a specific aiming point.

The fact is, that if you claim that arm action independent of shoulder rotation is required in the BS for hand control, then it would require arm action independent of shoulder rotation for hand control in the DS, i.e., an arm swing, which wouldn't provide the minimum power requirements to play golf effectively.

[KevCarter]

On the contrary, in video #17 at :19, he says "you're gonna monitor through the right forefinger". In another clip, he tells him to keep his mind in his hands. Ben teaches the hands controlled pivot! Throughout these clips, Ben talks about aiming point, which implies hand control.

You are saying that the shoulder turn takeaway is pivot controlled hands, but that the pivot driving the hands in the DS is not. If the pivot executing the BS is pivot control, then the pivot executing the DS would also have to be pivot control - you can't have it both ways. If you can direct the hands to a specific location with a fanning forearm, you can also direct them there with a shoulder turn. And wherever the hands end up in the BS, in either case, the mind is in them and knows where they are, and can then instruct the pivot to deliver them to a specific aiming point.

The fact is, that if you claim that arm action independent of shoulder rotation is required in the BS for hand control, then it would require arm action independent of shoulder rotation for hand control in the DS, i.e., an arm swing, which wouldn't provide the minimum power requirements to play golf effectively.

You are taking many liberties with my post and stuffing a lot of words into my mouth. As I've always said, there is more than one way, and we all have our preferences. I've no interest in trying to change your opinions.

Kevin

[12 piece bucket]

That swing IS what's being taught by Ben and that's one of his students.

So that is THE Ben Doyle model?

[12 piece bucket]

Is frame 3 the model?



Is this clubface postion the model? He describes "clubface to the ground" here

. . . what is the rationale behind this alignment?

[BCGolf]

Ray Floyd and Nancy Lopez made that move.

[KevCarter]

The precision alignments I prefer, providing plenty of power.

HOMER KELLEY viewed the Stationary Head as a geometric ideal, not as a mechanical absolute. He recognized our humanity. Hence, his advice: "Just keep it as still as you can."

[O.B.Left]

Hogan's got a longer lever there a driver which requires more time to release all things being equal . Which is why some Aiming Points are in front of the ball (not on the target side of the ball) for that lever length. Mine is anyways but my 910 D3 does have an open face on it.

Id take a lesson from Ben Doyle , for sure.

I cant see what his shaft looks like at Impact but Mr Doyles photos seen there raise a question for me re the Overtaking Rate: Im thinking that the factors are time or hand travel distance (from Release to Impact) and the degrees of Release (the #2 angle releasing 90 degrees say vs 80 or 70). If that's correct then you have to consider Ben Doyles shaft lean at impact when calculating his degrees of Release.

IM inventing terms here trying to explain things and I did flunk physics in high school , but Im thinking its possible to have a super late release but given tons of shaft lean at impact not have an amplified Overtaking Rate. You'd probably need to have a turned left hand grip to square the face too.....

That'd be a situation of "late but at the expense of degrees".....which reduces, perhaps negates the mechanical advantage of the late Release.

I dunno. What were we talking about again?

[O.B.Left]

I spent time with Ben back in 2005 and can vouch that while he may be eccentric in his own ways, he does know his golf. My updated swing with arms more out to first base.

Hey comdpa

Whats the logic behind Arms out to first base? Im assuming you dont tee you driver ball before low point which would for an on plane swing would require the hand and arms to travel forward , down and OUT from Impact all the way to Low Point.

Or maybe you do it have teed in front of low point? Opposite the left shoulder.

[comdpa]

You are lucky to have worked with Ben, I wish I were closer to So. Cal. I assume your right elbow has about the same amount of pitch as previous, which is why a belly view wasn't posted. You just added an in-to-out path, to facilitate your push draw? Will this be your "A Swing" for now? Thanks for posting.

Thank you for your constructive comments.

I wasn't working on the pitch elbow this week - more on the in-to-path as well as a bend in the left arm. Its not as rigid as the previous week if you notice. Ideally would like to keep my upper left arm close to parallel to ground. Yes, I agree the moves facilitates my push draw. I didn't like the "arms going left" look and feel as:

1. It facilitated pulls and made double-crossed shots a possibility.

2. It caused me to lose my spine angle, creating the occasional weak "wipe" shots.

Attached please see belly view.

[comdpa]

Hey comdpa

Whats the logic behind Arms out to first base? Im assuming you dont tee you driver ball before low point which would for an on plane swing would require the hand and arms to travel forward , down and OUT from Impact all the way to Low Point.

Or maybe you do it have teed in front of low point? Opposite the left shoulder.

The logic is simple. To keep my shaft on plane and not disrupt its natural orbit by pulling the arms low and left. Note where the shaft exits in my 30 Jul swing and 16 Jul swing. Attached for your convenience. Thanks for all the comments, let's keep them coming.