10-20 Downstroke Triggers

[Delaware Golf]

Who believes the components in section 10-20 are down stroke triggers...or what starts the downstroke. That starting the downstroke with the lower body is not correct?

10-20-A Hands Trigger
10-20-B Right Arm Trigger (right forearm)
10-20-C Right Shoulder Trigger
10-20-D Muscles of both forearms trigger
10-20-E Left Wrist Trigger

DG

[DennyAlberts]

or none of above?

[Jeff]

DG

I am not sure why you started this thread, and I am curious as to whether you think that one can start the downswing with a lower body move and not one of those triggers. Ben Hogan seems to imply that the downswing starts with a lower body move in this video lesson, and he doesn't imply that he needs a trigger from either the right upper limb or right shoulder.

Now, although Ben Hogan doesn't apparently need an upper body/limb trigger, I can understand how one can use i) a right shoulder thrust downplane or a ii) right arm throw action to reactively trigger the lower body shift-rotation movement. What I would like to know is whether there is scientific/biomechanical evidence to indicate whether one trigger method is better than another method.

Jeff.

[Yoda]

Who believes the components in section 10-20 are down stroke triggers...or what starts the downstroke. That starting the downstroke with the lower body is not correct?

10-20-A Hands Trigger
10-20-B Right Arm Trigger (right forearm)
10-20-C Right Shoulder Trigger
10-20-D Muscles of both forearms trigger
10-20-E Left Wrist Trigger

The five Component Variations listed in 10-20 are Release Triggers, not Downstroke Triggers. As such, they are not active unless and until the Start Down (8-7) and Downstroke (8-8 ) requirements have been met.

For the record, the 10-20-D Variation is the Delivery Path Trigger, not "Muscles of both forearms" Trigger. The latter designation does not exist in The Golfing Machine. Per 6-B-2-0, the "muscles of both forearms" are available to actuate the Release of the #2 Accumulator (Left Wrist), but this would apply to the Wrist Throw (10-20-E) and not the Delivery Path Throw (10-20-D).

[Yoda]

. . . I am curious as to whether you think that one can start the downswing with a lower body move and not one of those triggers. Ben Hogan seems to imply that the downswing starts with a lower body move in this video lesson, and he doesn't imply that he needs a trigger from either the right upper limb or right shoulder.

In Pivot Strokes, the Lower Body -- specifically, the Hip Action / Component #15 -- pulls the Loaded Power Package to the Release Point with no independent Motion of the Arms. Only then -- after Delivery / Component #23 -- does a pre-selected procedure Trigger / Component #20 the Release /Component #24, i.e., the lengthening of the Third Side (Bent Right Arm) of the Triangle Assembly.

Study 7-15; 7-20; 7-23; 7-24; 6-0; 6-A-1; and 6-K-0.

[Jeff]

Yoda - you wrote-: "In Pivot Strokes, the Lower Body -- specifically, the Hip Action / Component #15 -- pulls the Loaded Power Package to the Release Point with no independent Motion of the Arms. Only then -- after Delivery / Component #23 -- does a pre-selected procedure Trigger / Component #20 the Release /Component #24, i.e., the lengthening of the Third Side (Bent Right Arm) of the Triangle Assembly."

I agree that you are correct with respect to pivot strokes (ala Ben Hogan's swing). However, I presume that DG is asking the question whether those triggers can trigger the downstroke while the hip action is reactive to the trigger action. This is apparently the position taken by Peter Croker in his swing style. Here are two links to his swing ideology.

http://www.petercroker.com/englisch/...olferapril.htm

http://www.petercroker.com/golfdigestarticle1.htm

I think that there is a similarity between Peter Croker's push action from the top and Tom Tomasello's right arm throw action.

Do you think that the PC/TT swing methodology is not a viable method of executing a golf swing?

I have certain sympathy for the PC/TT ideology and it comes from my experience in executing a stone skipping action. I think that there is a great deal of similarity in the right arm movement in a stone skipping action and a full golf swing. I can perform a stone skipping action two ways and they both work. i) I can start the right arm throw from the top and have the pelvis near-instantaneously react to the right arm throw or ii) I can start the stone skipping action with an initiating pelvic shift-rotation movement that is near-instantaneously followed by a right arm throw action. The difference is very small, but I find that my stone skipping action action is slightly smoother when I perform the stone skipping action using technique number i). Couldn't that analogy also apply to a full golf swing? Could some golfers execute a full golf swing better by triggering the downstroke with a right arm throw action (throwing the entire right arm flying wedge intact) while having the pelvis react to the throw action?

Jeff.

[neil]

Do whatever works for you, but I am pretty sure this is a case of "not actually doing what you think you are doing".
when i skip the stone I think about getting my stone parallel to the water -via feedback from my hands. What I DON'T think about is my weight transfer to my front foot-my pivot ,but I still do it . I don't wait for my hand to get to "somewhere" and then turn on the hip power -I'd be playing catch up.Catch up doesn't work for me -once I have loaded the power package I want to store it for delivery, not lose half my load and fire whats left . Otherwise I could have saved some effort and made a smaller swing-and still started my downswing with my hips

[Jeff]

Neil - I agree that one transfers weight to the lead foot as soon as one starts a stone skipping action. In other words, the mere intent to throw the stone causes the lower body to react near-instantaneously so that the movement of the right upper body throwing unit (right arm flying wedge) occurs synchronously with the shift-rotation of the pelvis. That's the perspective of Peter Croker in his swing ideology. One focuses one's mind consciously on throwing the club from the top, but the "true" reality is that a number of body actions occur simultaneously at the very start of the downswing - the right shoulder moves downplane + right elbow moves towards the right hip + right arm flying wedge remains intact/unchanged (thereby keeping the distance between the hands and the right shoulder unchanged in the early downswing) + pelvis shift-rotates to the left. All these body actions occur simultaneously/synchronously.

Jeff.

[neil]

Neil - I agree that one transfers weight to the lead foot as soon as one starts a stone skipping action. In other words, the mere intent to throw the stone causes the lower body to react near-instantaneously so that the movement of the right upper body throwing unit (right arm flying wedge) occurs synchronously with the shift-rotation of the pelvis. That's the perspective of Peter Croker in his swing ideology. One focuses one's mind consciously on throwing the club from the top, but the "true" reality is that a number of body actions occur simultaneously at the very start of the downswing - the right shoulder moves downplane + right elbow moves towards the right hip + right arm flying wedge remains intact/unchanged (thereby keeping the distance between the hands and the right shoulder unchanged in the early downswing) + pelvis shift-rotates to the left. All these body actions occur simultaneously/synchronously.

Jeff.

But if you are a swinger -it starts from the feet up -period

[Mike O]

Neil - I agree that one transfers weight to the lead foot as soon as one starts a stone skipping action. In other words, the mere intent to throw the stone causes the lower body to react near-instantaneously so that the movement of the right upper body throwing unit (right arm flying wedge) occurs synchronously with the shift-rotation of the pelvis. That's the perspective of Peter Croker in his swing ideology. One focuses one's mind consciously on throwing the club from the top, but the "true" reality is that a number of body actions occur simultaneously at the very start of the downswing - the right shoulder moves downplane + right elbow moves towards the right hip + right arm flying wedge remains intact/unchanged (thereby keeping the distance between the hands and the right shoulder unchanged in the early downswing) + pelvis shift-rotates to the left. All these body actions occur simultaneously/synchronously.

Jeff.

Procedurally- this is a good description of what should happen in a golf swing. You have the intent to move the hands and the club and other things respond. Perfect! However, if A="mere intent" = B=simultaneous lower body movement, etc. - then this would be an easy game. But the equation isn't just A=B i.e. mere intent = perfect body response. The equation is A +X = B. There is an X.