To restore civility to this thread, I have deleted in full several offending posts and have edited others to remove insensitive and inflammatory remarks. For now, the thread remains open based on the merit of its content.
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Point taken - thanks. Any comments on the way that Mathew has interpreted the role of the right shoulder? Every classroom needs its disciplinarian head teacher!
Any comments on the way that Mathew has interpreted the role of the right shoulder?
Mathew's study of TGM and his self-taught applications of 3-D software to its concepts is considerable. I hope to learn more of his specific fruits in the future.
When focused on Pivot assignments, Homer Kelley advised his students to "Hit the ball with your right shoulder."
"On plane right shoulder is possible only by tilting its axis - the spin." That's why i play my Hula Hula every night.
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If you cannot take the shoulder down the clubshaft plane, you must take along some other path and add compensations - now, instead of one motion to remember, you wind up with at least two!
Golfbulldog - you wrote-: "10-13-D On-plane shoulder turn...Homer Kelley's words and photos...dianne's pics show the right shoulder moving down the turned shoulder...single plane throughout the downstroke..."the right shoulder moves toward timpact precisely on the preselected downstroke clubshaft plane..."
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You are seemingly implying that the i) right shoulder has to move down the turned shoulder plane, and then you state that the ii) right shoulder moves down toward impact on the preselected downstroke clubshaft plane.
If the preselected downstroke clubshaft plane is the turned shoulder plane, then i) and ii) are the same. However, what happens if the preselected downstroke clubshaft plane is shallower eg. elbow plane? Surely, it is physically impossible to move the right shoulder along such a shallow plane - unless you have the spinal/torso flexibility of Paula Creamer?
It would seem to me that the best that most inflexible golfers can do is aim the right shoulder towards the ball and hope that one has sufficient spinal/torso flexibility to enable the right shoulder to move down sufficiently in the general direction of the ball.
Golfbulldog - you wrote-: "10-13-D On-plane shoulder turn...Homer Kelley's words and photos...dianne's pics show the right shoulder moving down the turned shoulder...single plane throughout the downstroke..."the right shoulder moves toward timpact precisely on the preselected downstroke clubshaft plane..."
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You are seemingly implying that the i) right shoulder has to move down the turned shoulder plane, and then you state that the ii) right shoulder moves down toward impact on the preselected downstroke clubshaft plane.
If the preselected downstroke clubshaft plane is the turned shoulder plane, then i) and ii) are the same. However, what happens if the preselected downstroke clubshaft plane is shallower eg. elbow plane? Surely, it is physically impossible to move the right shoulder along such a shallow plane - unless you have the spinal/torso flexibility of Paula Creamer?
It would seem to me that the best that most inflexible golfers can do is aim the right shoulder towards the ball and hope that one has sufficient spinal/torso flexibility to enable the right shoulder to move down sufficiently in the general direction of the ball.
Jeff.
Jeff . . . you are making some good points. I think that certainly the shoulder location/motion major implications on the height of the hands and therefore the plane . . . also the direction of the hands . . . therefore the hand path . . . that's why Homer called for a "centered" pivot.
Could you speak to spinal flexibility? How do you determine how much spinal flexibility you have?
Golfbulldog - you wrote-: "10-13-D On-plane shoulder turn...Homer Kelley's words and photos...dianne's pics show the right shoulder moving down the turned shoulder...single plane throughout the downstroke..."the right shoulder moves toward timpact precisely on the preselected downstroke clubshaft plane..."
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You are seemingly implying that the i) right shoulder has to move down the turned shoulder plane, and then you state that the ii) right shoulder moves down toward impact on the preselected downstroke clubshaft plane.
If the preselected downstroke clubshaft plane is the turned shoulder plane, then i) and ii) are the same. However, what happens if the preselected downstroke clubshaft plane is shallower eg. elbow plane? Surely, it is physically impossible to move the right shoulder along such a shallow plane - unless you have the spinal/torso flexibility of Paula Creamer?
It would seem to me that the best that most inflexible golfers can do is aim the right shoulder towards the ball and hope that one has sufficient spinal/torso flexibility to enable the right shoulder to move down sufficiently in the general direction of the ball.
Jeff.
Hi Jeff,
Absolutely ... the right shoulder at impact is not on the elbow plane even if the clubshaft is....the bits that you quoted were Homer's words...not mine....go back and look at my words earlier in this thread and i say that the right shoulder stays on the TSP plane even if pp3 goes to elbow plane at impact. Here it is...
"#13 05-22-2008, 07:01 AM
golfbulldog
Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 448
Once loaded the right shoulder is better off staying on plane throughout the downswing...no? Maybe not always on the same plane as the pp3 at impact..ie. the shoulder does not have to be on the same elbow plane as pp3might be using at impact....but it can still be on plane....ie tracing??"
I think that we agree with eachother on this point... and that is a first for this particular thread!!!
Last edited by golfbulldog : 05-24-2008 at 06:49 AM.
If the left wrist is to uncock on the square plane line in the manner of a sequenced release for a swinger... then the left wrist must remain absolutely turned to the plane prior to uncocking even if that means that the left wrist is bent.
Discuss....with particular reference to the following:-
- Remember that the clubface must remain turned to the plane prior to the sequenced release.
- A bent left wrist means that there is a visual bend at the left wrist and the left wrist cock/uncock motion is in a different plane to the left forearm. (NB. this is different to a geometrically/mechanically flat wrist (at least my understanding) where there might be a small visual bend but the left wrist cocks and uncocks in the same plane as the left forearm WITHOUT forearm rotation)
I see that there are 3 variables that need to be considered....the plane line used for uncocking (either square or out to right field like Hogan illustrates, whether the left wrist is mechanically flat or bent...and whether the clubface remains 100% turned to the plane prior to uncocking)
Bucket - there are formal tests for spine flexibility that measure flexion/extension, lateral flexion and rotation of different sections of the spine (cervical, thoracic and lumbar).
However, in a general sense, there are two important informal tests that I think are useful to assess whether a golfer has good spine flexibility.
1) Adopt the standard golfer's bent-over posture with the arms folded across the chest, and turn the hips to at least 45-50 degrees while maximally turning the shoulders around the bent-over spine in a standard backswing motion. The shoulder turn should be 90-110 degrees if one has sufficient spinal flexibility (presuming that other factors [eg. barrel chest, overweight central torso] aren't limiting torso rotation). I unfortiunately, can only rotate to 70 degrees despite a full hip turn.
2) Repeat the above test and get to the end-backswing position. Then have a friend place his right hand palm over the front of the right shoulder to prevent the shoulders turning (with your friend standing behind you). Then start an imaginary downswing pivot action by shift-rotating the pelvis (hip squaring action). If you can square the pelvis (representing a 45-50 pelvic rotation), without your friend "feeling" a tremendous pull force on his right palm, then you have a very flexible spine (good hula flexibility). If you friend "feels" a significant pull-force against his right hand palm, but you can still square the hips, then you have moderate hula flexibility. If you are inflexible like me, then you will not be able to square the hips without the shoulders immediately turning in a rounhousing manner- that represents very poor hula flexibility.
If the left wrist is to uncock on the square plane line in the manner of a sequenced release for a swinger... then the left wrist must remain absolutely turned to the plane prior to uncocking even if that means that the left wrist is bent.:
IF the left wrist is the only thing moving and everything else is not moving- then the shaft would move on the same plane as the left wrist was moving (uncocking or cocking). That's not the case in the golf swing. The left wrist motion creates one vector of many vectors (lots of joint motions) - so the left wrist can uncock on a plane that is different that the resultant "on plane" motion of the clubshaft. For Homer Kelley's analysis of this issue see 2-N-1 in his book- "The Golfing Machine". It seems to me that given the post above and the video link - that there is a belief or implied statement that the left wrist has to be on the clubshaft plane during a sequenced release for the clubshaft to stay "on plane". A sequenced release involves the release of accumulators #2 and #3- there's a lot more going on in the swing besides just those two accumulators- while Accumulator #2 is releasing before #3- there are a lot of force vectors than combine with accumulator #2 to maintain an on plane clubshaft.
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IF the left wrist is the only thing moving and everything else is not moving- then the shaft would move on the same plane as the left wrist was moving (uncocking or cocking). That's not the case in the golf swing. The left wrist motion creates one vector of many vectors (lots of joint motions) - so the left wrist can uncock on a plane that is different that the resultant "on plane" motion of the clubshaft. For Homer Kelley's analysis of this issue see 2-N-1 in his book- "The Golfing Machine". It seems to me that given the post above and the video link - that there is a belief or implied statement that the left wrist has to be on the clubshaft plane during a sequenced release for the clubshaft to stay "on plane". A sequenced release involves the release of accumulators #2 and #3- there's a lot more going on in the swing besides just those two accumulators- while Accumulator #2 is releasing before #3- there are a lot of force vectors than combine with accumulator #2 to maintain an on plane clubshaft.
My highlighting. Sorry if you misunderstood my post.
From my comments, it should be understood that the sweetspot and pp3 can remain on-plane (square plane line tracing) and yet in a different plane to the left arm only with a bent left wrist. (assuming that the clubface has not rolled away from the plane prior to left wrist uncock.) At least that is the way it seems to me from Matthew's videos and previous posts.
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