If I had to pick on 'single' difference between hitting and swinging, I would say 'rotation'.
Right you are, EdZ.
Rotation -- Gyroscopic Action -- is created by both Swinger and Hitter. The difference between the two lies in how this Rotation (of the orbiting Club) is created:
I'm a new contributor and an anatomy/physiology nut along with GSEM and PGA affiliation; I am compelled to clarify that wrists cannot rotate. They can only flex, extend, adduct, abduct, or circumduct from standard anatomical position. I have trouble understanding GM terminology. Only the whole arm or forearm can rotate. Forearm rotation is termed supination or pronation and whole arm rotation is termed either internal or external rotation or, in some circles, lateral or medial rotation. So is so called wrist rotation a form of forearm rotation or whole arm rotation. Mechanical advantage suggests that forearm rotation is great for opening jars and manipulating most faucets from hot to cold or on to off but not so great for manipulating a golf club. Whole arm rotation is much more massive, powerful, and precise than forearm rotation during a golf swing. Please explain or reply if my words provoke anyone.
Hey coophitter...
Welcome to LBG. Maybe you would like to tell us more about yourself?
I'm a new contributor and an anatomy/physiology nut along with GSEM and PGA affiliation; I am compelled to clarify that wrists cannot rotate. They can only flex, extend, adduct, abduct, or circumduct from standard anatomical position. I have trouble understanding GM terminology. Only the whole arm or forearm can rotate. Forearm rotation is termed supination or pronation and whole arm rotation is termed either internal or external rotation or, in some circles, lateral or medial rotation. So is so called wrist rotation a form of forearm rotation or whole arm rotation. Mechanical advantage suggests that forearm rotation is great for opening jars and manipulating most faucets from hot to cold or on to off but not so great for manipulating a golf club. Whole arm rotation is much more massive, powerful, and precise than forearm rotation during a golf swing. Please explain or reply if my words provoke anyone.
i don't have the book with me but as i recall in the picture definitions turning is pronation of the lead forearm and supination of the trail...rolling is the opposite...this is the basis of Accum#3 action (IMHO) while the whole arm rotation of the lead arm you describe is the basis of Accum#4 action (again IMHO)...
Hello Slinger, I'm a golf instructor in Jacksonville Beach, FL. I went through GSEB testing with Jim Surber who studied and earned AI certification under Ben Doyle and George Kelnhofer. I earned GSEM certification via 4 weeks of intense frustrating training with Tom Tomasello who seemed to always contradict what I learned through the Doyle, Kelnhofer, Surber lineage. Anyway, for me, Jim Surber 14 years ago was a most loyal and affable friend, whom I regrettably can't locate, who nevertheless took me from a 3 handicap to an 8 - while Tomasello - an irascible motormouth, took me to scratch or better 12 years ago once I opened my mind to his contradictions. I became a right arm swinger or hitter whose lineage, in my opinion, dates back to the great Harry Vardon and has survived and thrived through the study and applied work of Tommy Armour, Joe Norwood, John Jacobs, and sometimes Butch Harmon, Hank Haney, David Leadbetter, and many other instructors who often, in desperation, tell desperate golfers to go ahead and hold the club firmly with particular left hand fingers as well as particular right hand fingers and then figure out how to swing through or bash through the ball with the right arm. In all strokes from drive to putt, hold with the left and swing or bash through with the right, and if you can master and monitor preselected horizontal, angled, or vertical hinge action, the ball will often come very close to obeying your computer's intended ball flight.
Originally Posted by comdpa
Hey coophitter...
Welcome to LBG. Maybe you would like to tell us more about yourself?
Hello HCW, I replied to Slinger with a bit about my background and I reply to you now with thanks for the clarity you provided regarding supination and pronation. Rarely is the word supination mentioned in the annals of golf instruction yet if both hands are holding the club snugly, pronation of one forearm will be simultaneously accompanied by supination of the other and vice versa. I've always observed however that forearm rotation independent, beyond, and faster(rpm and mph)than whole arm rotation succeeds only as a corective measure or remedy for an off plane near the top, at the top, or start down off plane condition or it serves great purpose through impact for specialty shots. Actually forearm rotations can serve or disserve a golfer in so many ways that I don't feel my language is adequate to describe what I'm trying to convey. Anyway, thanks for the clarity and rare addition of the term "supination" in golf lexicon.
Originally Posted by hcw
i don't have the book with me but as i recall in the picture definitions turning is pronation of the lead forearm and supination of the trail...rolling is the opposite...this is the basis of Accum#3 action (IMHO) while the whole arm rotation of the lead arm you describe is the basis of Accum#4 action (again IMHO)...
Hello Slinger, I'm a golf instructor in Jacksonville Beach, FL. I went through GSEB testing with Jim Surber who studied and earned AI certification under Ben Doyle and George Kelnhofer. I earned GSEM certification via 4 weeks of intense frustrating training with Tom Tomasello who seemed to always contradict what I learned through the Doyle, Kelnhofer, Surber lineage. Anyway, for me, Jim Surber 14 years ago was a most loyal and affable friend, whom I regrettably can't locate, who nevertheless took me from a 3 handicap to an 8 - while Tomasello - an irascible motormouth, took me to scratch or better 12 years ago once I opened my mind to his contradictions. I became a right arm swinger or hitter whose lineage, in my opinion, dates back to the great Harry Vardon and has survived and thrived through the study and applied work of Tommy Armour, Joe Norwood, John Jacobs, and sometimes Butch Harmon, Hank Haney, David Leadbetter, and many other instructors who often, in desperation, tell desperate golfers to go ahead and hold the club firmly with particular left hand fingers as well as particular right hand fingers and then figure out how to swing through or bash through the ball with the right arm. In all strokes from drive to putt, hold with the left and swing or bash through with the right, and if you can master and monitor preselected horizontal, angled, or vertical hinge action, the ball will often come very close to obeying your computer's intended ball flight.
Wow tremendous experience, thanks...I look forward to learning from you.
I'm really interested in your experience with Tom Tomasello. I'm not sure if you have seen them, but there are a bunch of videos of Tom on this site in the Gallery section, which have certainly been helpful to me, and I'm sure to others here.
I'd be keen to hear details on the procedure Tom taught you. If you don't mind, a couple of questions I haven't really figured out from watching the videos mentioned above.
(1) In some of his videos (The 'Australian' series) Tom talks about the left hip pulling behind and the pivot not stopping through the shot. But in others (The 'Myrtle Beach' series)he seems to suggest a much more quiet body - more as if the hips get somewhat open and then are pulled to the finish (facing the target) by the momentum of the arms. Which of these (if either) were you taught?
(2) Did Tom teach you a longitudinal pull of the clubshaft from the top/end. Again, I think this is explicit in the 'Australian' series, but less so in the 'Myrtle Beach' series?
Any help you could offer, or any other insights, would be much appreciated!
Hello HCW, I replied to Slinger with a bit about my background and I reply to you now with thanks for the clarity you provided regarding supination and pronation. Rarely is the word supination mentioned in the annals of golf instruction yet if both hands are holding the club snugly, pronation of one forearm will be simultaneously accompanied by supination of the other and vice versa. I've always observed however that forearm rotation independent, beyond, and faster(rpm and mph)than whole arm rotation succeeds only as a corective measure or remedy for an off plane near the top, at the top, or start down off plane condition or it serves great purpose through impact for specialty shots. Actually forearm rotations can serve or disserve a golfer in so many ways that I don't feel my language is adequate to describe what I'm trying to convey. Anyway, thanks for the clarity and rare addition of the term "supination" in golf lexicon.
hi coop,
glad to help...i'm no TGM expert by any means, but "supination and pronation" have been part of my training and it is useful for me to translate HK's terms to such anatomical standards (but probably isn't or even is confusing for a lot of folks, just depends on what you are used to)...cheers!
I'm really interested in your experience with Tom Tomasello. I'm not sure if you have seen them, but there are a bunch of videos of Tom on this site in the Gallery section, which have certainly been helpful to me, and I'm sure to others here.
I'd be keen to hear details on the procedure Tom taught you. If you don't mind, a couple of questions I haven't really figured out from watching the videos mentioned above.
(1) In some of his videos (The 'Australian' series) Tom talks about the left hip pulling behind and the pivot not stopping through the shot. But in others (The 'Myrtle Beach' series)he seems to suggest a much more quiet body - more as if the hips get somewhat open and then are pulled to the finish (facing the target) by the momentum of the arms. Which of these (if either) were you taught?
(2) Did Tom teach you a longitudinal pull of the clubshaft from the top/end. Again, I think this is explicit in the 'Australian' series, but less so in the 'Myrtle Beach' series?
Any help you could offer, or any other insights, would be much appreciated!
Kind regards,
Chris
Hi, Chris. Tomasello told me about longitudinal acceleration but he taught me an immediate radial and vertical uncocking of the right arm to begin the downswing and told me to do absolutely as little as possible with my body except to follow the flight of the ball immediately after impact with my eyes. He said I would instinctively and quickly plant pressure under both feet (the sit) to facilitate the throw and not to worry about it. He also told me extensor action would keep the right arm from straightening out too early as long as I only allowed my left wrist to uncock in line with the left arm and didn,t let the right wrist flex forward. Then he taught me about the various hinge actions. A horizontal hinge action would definitely pull my whole body onto my left foot post impact yet angled and vertical wouldn't as much. Even though video would show that my left knee separated from my right to put pressure under my left foot to set up the throw, Tomasello admonished me to throw that club straight into the ground prior to altering the pose of my body and to stay on that right side until the throw pulled me onto my left foot. He did say to really let the body be pulled though. That's all I still do and if you read Harry Vardon's The Gist of Golf, that is what he tells you to do to start the downswing. I hope this clears things up. No body muscling before the the throw. Only a slight brace will occur under both feet to set it up as all energy comes first from the earth, Hope this explains things somewhat for you.
Hi, Chris. Tomasello told me about longitudinal acceleration but he taught me an immediate radial and vertical uncocking of the right arm to begin the downswing and told me to do absolutely as little as possible with my body except to follow the flight of the ball immediately after impact with my eyes. He said I would instinctively and quickly plant pressure under both feet (the sit) to facilitate the throw and not to worry about it. He also told me extensor action would keep the right arm from straightening out too early as long as I only allowed my left wrist to uncock in line with the left arm and didn,t let the right wrist flex forward. Then he taught me about the various hinge actions. A horizontal hinge action would definitely pull my whole body onto my left foot post impact yet angled and vertical wouldn't as much. Even though video would show that my left knee separated from my right to put pressure under my left foot to set up the throw, Tomasello admonished me to throw that club straight into the ground prior to altering the pose of my body and to stay on that right side until the throw pulled me onto my left foot. He did say to really let the body be pulled though. That's all I still do and if you read Harry Vardon's The Gist of Golf, that is what he tells you to do to start the downswing. I hope this clears things up. No body muscling before the the throw. Only a slight brace will occur under both feet to set it up as all energy comes first from the earth, Hope this explains things somewhat for you.
Coophitter,
It's great to have a Tomasello student on board who was able to develop and perfect the right arm swinging procedure that Tomasello taught to golfers around the world.
Especially liked the Harry Vardon comparison/comment...
ChrisNZ,
Tommy handed me the Australia tape as we parted ways after my three day school with him back in the fall of 1993. I have probably watched the Aussie video 500 times or more and I can tell you that the Aussie video and the Myrtle Beach video have Tommy teaching a quiet body approach. On the lesson tee, I asked Tommy where did he come up with the right arm startdown move...Tommy said, 7-3....The MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM...thanks Coophitter for confirming the legitimacy of the Tomasello approach...which is in the book under “Right arm swing”….See 7-19. Also, Homer Kelley did not have a problem with right arm swinging...
DG
Last edited by Delaware Golf : 02-11-2006 at 08:23 PM.
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