Hand Controlled Pivot vs Pivot Controlled Hands
 

Question for the forum?

Was watching a video from a TGM instructor
obviously describing a swinging procedure:
"learn to drive your hands through the pivot, constantly monitoring --- hands say come on pivot take me back --- come on pivot bring me down"

the question I have is would you classify that as a hand controlled pivot or pivot controlled hand

been watching and reading some clips and threads --- BY THE WAY --- great website -- I have been throughly impressed!!!!!!

Seems like a hand controlled pivot might be only --- the hand moving first then the body moving --- Thanks in Advance

The difference is in what you are monitoring, not what is powering the motion or moving first per se. Hands control, regardless of what is moving them, is an awareness of the hands, pivot control is monitoring the pivot, at the exteme, monitoring the feet. Throwing a baseball is a great example of hands control. Tossing a 50 pound sack into a pickup is a good example of pivot control.

Left hand, club face control. Right hand, club head control. Flat left wrist and bent right wrist at impact. Feel, and monitor, all this through the pressure points in the hands.

Educate the hands and they will let the pivot know what to do.

Always a good topic for debate... one that can be used to cause divide amongst TGM ...the guys have given pretty good answers already but what do you feel Sensicore?

You have met more GSEDs than most ( i really liked your answer re. greg McHatton pattern 2nd edition knowledge!!) - do you think that there is a common understanding amongst GSEDs / AIs about what these terms really mean?

Greg teaches on pivot ( physically moving pelvis with his hands if need be) but i'd guess that he plays with his mind in his hands ? maybe?

Once pp3 experiences lag pressure the body does whatever it takes "to sustain and aim" ... that is hands controlled. The body does whatever( who cares as long as imperatives intact)... the hands just sense sustained lag pressure and direction of delivery.

Only a hitter would primarily have to move hands to create the lag sensation in the first place... maybe... getting out of depth here...:eyes:

great posts!!!! Excellent descriptions and comparisons.... very knowledge crew here!!!

It does seem to be a great debate, however the posts above are the answers. I had the opportunity to spend 3 days with Greg, very nice man.... has the best wallop I have ever seen next to Bobby Clampett and Scott Verplank, he defintely employs a hand control pivot...... his #3 pp does the dictating on how his pivot moves.... which is the deciding factor!

The only real problem I have had with a pivot controlled takeaway on the backswing base line was the loss of radius to soon with longer clubs.
When I have new to the game players most of them use there hands more any way. I find it better for them to get the order so the right arm works cleaner. I would say its more or less better for them when learning PPcontrol to the aft of the ball.If that was not the case they would have loss of the Flail way to soon. You must have thrust, with good order.

"lag"-controlled pivot
 

The hands-controlled-pivot can work, only if there is "lag" for them to pull or push against.

Load the "lag" and sustain it.

If a player has never felt , or been aware of, lag pressure... Is it easier for them to recognise a large amount of lag pressure or a small amount of lag pressure?

Whilst their technique may not be adequate to sustain large amount of lag pressure ( throwaway and poor structure) is it not better that they really feel what they have got to sustain?

Do heavy clubs work this way? Give the player a massive dollop of lag pressure in transition phase that then allows them to recognise the more subtle flavours of lag pressure with a normally weighted club?

It is hard to sustain something that you are not aware of...

Next time you get in a pool, get in so that the water level is about chest high. With your hands just barely at water level (PP#1 on water level, left hand slightly below, right hand slightly out of water) - make some 'swings'.

No splashes, just waves.

A great way to feel the 'pressure' you are after - a smooth, heavy feel. It will also show you the way that PP#3 rotates around PP#1.

feel the "lag"
 

Doesn't matter, as long as there is "lag".
There is very little technique needed to "load it and sustain". Again, it's in the intent.
It should, given that the player has no intent to "throw it away".
Very true. Yet, it's even harder to sustain something that you are so eager to "throw away".

There is one way for you to experience the "LAG/hands-controlled-pivot":

First, you need to establish the "lag"/resistance/heaviness feel/drag ("artifically"). Take the club back to the waist level so that the shaft is parallel to the target line and the ground and have someone hold it firmly behind you or tight the clubhead to something stationary.

Next, pull or push the club (toward the ball as in your normal swing) with the hands. The resistance/heaviness feel/drag your hands and body encounterring (or the shaft bent/stress created) is THE "Lag" (you are supposed to feel during a "lag-sustaining" swing). The harder the action, the more the "lag".

Now, look yourself in the mirror (or shot a video), if it's available, how your pivot react/respond (or being controlled by) to your intent of pulling or pushing against the "lag" with the hands. Yeah right, all of a sudden that familiar "bump and turn" you hear all the time comes up. Also feel the tension created all over the body (the pivot lag, accumulator lag and club lag).

How come you intend to pull or push, yet the pivot always shows up first with a nice little "bump and turn"?

How about the "pivot-controlled-hands"? Just try to move the club with the intent of bumping and turning the pivot and look into the mirror. Now, compare the difference in body motion and feel created between those two "intents".

Hope it's clear enough. Good luck and enjoy.