Ben Hogan's 24 Basic Components
 

Messrs. Yoda, 12Bucket and All, here is my take, currently (open for critiques/learning/discussions), of Ben Hogan's 24 Basic Components:

1. Basic Grip-Hand to Hand: 10-1-A. OVERLAPPING - With R little finger hooked (instead of merely overlapped) over the L index finger's middle knuckle/joint. Helps prevents loosening of L index finger during the swing, thus preventing over-uncocking of the L wrist during start down, down stroke, release and impact, and thus prevents artificially adding PA2 and straightening the PA3-angle (towards zeroing out PA3), thus reducing clubhead travel.

2. Grip Type-Hands to Plane: 10-2-C/10-2-G. WEAK QUADRUPLE ACTION - L wrist is vertical and R wrist rolled slightly towards the top making the R wrist just a bit weaker than the L wrist. L thumb is in the direction of the L wrist cocking motion, but PP3 near but not exactly in that direction. This PP3 position prevents over-turn of the L wrist. Due to this orientation or position of PP3, the L wrist also bends or cups slightly when the L wrist is cocked and turned and the R wrist is bent. Hence, quadruple action.

3. Basic Stroke: Major Basic Stroke-Elbow Position 10-3-B. PITCH - Hogan's R elbow is always in front, though less in front as start down progresses to down stroke into release into impact.

Minor Basic Stroke-Arm Motion 10-3-D. PULL - Club is accelerated by the motion of the arms (L arm only IMO, see later)

4. Stroke Type and Variation-Accumulator Combination: 10-4-D. Four Barrel - In this sequence: 4-3-1-2, with the intents just being PA4 and PA3. PA1 and PA2 releases as well but secondarily or unintentionally. Main thought is PA4 and PA3, simultaneously.

5. Plane Line-Guideline: 10-5-C. Square-Closed - Square toes means closed heels to me since Hogan's L foot is always flared out, so Hogan's stance line is closed to the line of flight.

6. Basic Plane Angle-Clubshaft Control: 10-6-E. Hands Plane - Hogan's clubshaft stayed on the hands plane until his hands get to R hip height, afterwhich it shifted to the elbow plane, and to turned shoulder plane for longer swings. I believe his intent is to get back to the hands plane at release.

7. Plane Angle Variations-Customized Plane: 10-7-C. Double Shift - However, Hogan came from hands plane then shifted to elbow plane in backstroke, then shifted back to hands plane during start down/downstroke. He stayed on hands plane during start up until backstroke, afterwhich he shifted to elbow plane.

8. Impact Fix-Address Engineering: 10-8-A. Standard - Hogan made a forward press of both his legs/knees, body and hands. It is clear to me that is his impact fix intent.

9. Address-Address Positionin: 10-9-C. Half and Half - Hogan had mid-body hands at address, but his knees and hips are slightly in K-position already.

10. Hinge Action-Ball Control: 10-10-A. Horizontal Hinge Action - Both Hogan's L shoulder hinge and L wrist hinge are closing like a door. It's just that he does something with his hips at release that changes the shoulder action plane and makes both L shoulder and wrist hinges and hence the clubface look like as if they're angle hinging looking at the camera.

11. Pressure Point Combinations-Thrust: 10-11-D. Four-Point Combination - The thrust combination-sequence is PP1-PP4/PP2/PP3. It's just PP1 from start down when his Primary Lever and Secondary Lever just went down into downstroke, then he simultaneously aggressively applies PP4/PP2/PP3 until follow-through.

12. Body Control-Pivot: 10-12-C. Delayed Pivot - Hogan sort of restricted his backstroke by restraining/restricting his hips during backstroke, and by having a less-long L thumb, open L foot, square R foot, inward R knee and by keeping the angle of his R leg intact. He had a full free follow-thru.

13. Body Control-Shoulder Turn: 10-3-A. Standard - Hogan had a flat R shoulder turn in backstroke and an on-plane or steep R shoulder turn in downstroke.

14. Body Control-Hip Turn: 10-14-D. Reverse - Hogan"s hips slides toward impact fix position during the backstroke.

15. Body Control-Hip Action: 10-15-B. Delayed - Hogan restricts/restrains his hips in backstroke, and it leads in start down thru downstroke all the way into impact.

16. Body Control-Knee Action: 10-16-D. Double Anchor - Hogan straightens his R knee in backstroke and straightens his L knee in downstroke, but I don't think they straighten fully; so, they can't be 10-16-A Standard. The straightening are very slight.

17. Body Control-Foot Action: 10-17-A. Standard - Hogan rolls and lifts his L heel slightly on top.

18. Clubhead Control-L Wrist Action: 10-18-B. Double - Hogan turned and cocked his L wrist into a bent position on top; then rolled and uncocked his L wrist into impact via centrifugal force.

19. Lag Loading: 10-19-C. Drag Loading - Hogan fully cocks the L wrist and then pulls down the club longitudinally like drawing an arrow from a quiver on your back.

20. Trigger Type: 10-20-C. Shoulder Turn Throw and 10-20-E. Wrist Throw - After drag loading at start down while maintaining PP1, right before release, Hogan turns his L shoulder (PP4/PA4) and L wrist hard (PP2/PA3/PP/PA1) simultaneously.

21. Power Package-Assembly Point: 10-21-B. Side - Hogan's PAs are all loaded by the time his L arm reaches parallel.

22. Power Package-Loading Action: 10-22-A. Full Sweep - Hogan immediately loads his PAs as soon as he starts up.

23. Power Package-Delivery Paths: 10-23-D. Top Arc and Angled Line - For full woods swing, Hogan went beyond the top of the line point, and went up and arc and back along that same arc, then he drops down to elbow plane, then gets his hands directly straight to its impact position or the aiming point.

24. Power Package-Release: 10-24-B. Non-Automatic Random Sweep - Hogan definitely did not use a Full Sweep Release as he dropped down his hands and club down to hip height while retaining all PAs. However, I do not believe he delayed the release of the PAs for as long as possible. I believe he just delayed it enough during start down, and then immediately, non-automatically released his power package from thereon onwards up to a high hands finish.

Did I get it right? Am I off?

Im not Bucket (thank gosh) but ... Wow great stuff, effort.

Re point 4. 4,3,1,2 is impossible isn't it? The left arm can not separate from the chest without the right arm extending. Unless you redefine what is meant by #1... Some ,from other quarters , have done this . Ok by me, why not? My only problem is when some of those same guys turn around and say Homer therefor had it wrong. You can't judge him using a definition of things that varies from his own .



Also 3 before 2 would mean he was rolling a fully cocked left hand which is kind of un golf like and would make for an extremely early release given how much #2 angle he would be rolling.... the angle making for way more drag upon the rolling action. (This is something Homer discussed in the audio tapes .... minimizing #3 angle to encourage a later Release Point, Snap Release). Hogan had minimal #3 angle at Address , "high hands" or what we see as a nice set of Wedges .. he rolled a level left hand after a goodly amount of #2 uncocking. 2 before 3 with some overlapping ... (theres always a bit of overlap even when Release is Sequenced).

Great topic. Looking forward to others jumping in.

Regards
ob.

Yeah, sort of impossible. Yeah, PA1 is technically the release or straightening of the R elbow, correct? So yeah, if you do that you will get the upper L arm off the chest. Ok, got it. I stand corrected. That is why Hogan's R elbow is still so bent at impact than anyone. Will edit my List.

I guess it is a matter of intent vs reality. What you said is the Reality, I agree. But I also am saying that if we are to base it on Intent, I think it is just PA4 and PA3 simultaneously.

And yes, since there's a lot of PA3-angle at Downstroke, you have to release it early, very early. That is why I believe the simultaneous release of PA4 and PA3 should be immediately after Start Down. After the Drag Loading during Start Down, you just fire the hell out of PA4 and PA3.

I know when you fire PA4 and PA3 simultaneously Non-Automatically (intentionally), PA2 will always fire/release in the process. But I think it is possible to have an intent to release PA3 first before PA2. So, I think a PA4/PA3-PA2 sequence is possible. Yeah, it is hard, but it is possible, IMO. You gotta have a really strong Pivot, L Shoulder, and L arm firing through ala Dual Horizontal Hinge very early.

I like very much what you said about a huge PA2/PA3-angle still remaining making for way more drag upon the rolling action. It is really excellent basis for someone, or for Hogan for that matter, to adopt his supination and rolling intents. That drag will automatically limit or slow down the supination/rolling actions, especially on the ClubFace, without limiting or slowing down at all the ClubHead's speed/travel. So, you got ClubFace closing slower, but a ClubHead going faster.

Re PA2 releasing before PA3 on Hogan, I don't see this. I see him retaining his L wristcock almost 100%---his tremendous Lag. So, I see him Drag Loading while going down to Elbow Plane, in the process retaining L wristcock and his PA2-angle...then Hogan just releases the heck out of his PA4 and PA3. Of course, PA2 will also release due to CF acting on the ClubHead, otherwise he will whiff the ball, but I see this PA2 release as more of a consequence or by-product rather than a Cause or Intent.

Re later Release Point/Snap Release, I think we just see this in Hogan exactly because he doesn't release PA2 at all, I mean, Intent-wise.

I agree minimizing PA3-angle at Address should be RELEASED via a late Release Point/Snap Release. But, I don't think minimum PA3-angle ENCOURAGES or HELPS or will necessarily result to Snap Release. In fact, I think a minimum PA3-angle will ENCOURAGE or will FORCE you to release very early--Full Sweep Release. Why, because your PA2-angle on Top will WANT to release immediately as soon as the Backstroke finishes. It wants to "Bounce-out".

So, to release a minimum PA3-angle at Address, you really have to fight it out to prevent Full Release and obtain Snap Release. So why would we want that? Isn't it better to remove the the fact that we have to "fight it out"? Why not just adopt a maximum PA3-angle possible at Address ON A FULLY UNCOCKED L WRIST, so that you wouldn't have to fight out to prevent early Release so you can obtain Snap Release? Why not just let it Drag Load at Start Down, then intentionally FULLY RELEASE immediately after (Non-Automatic Random Sweep Release)? It is easier to do, and easier to time---consistency. The only problem is, you gotta be strong and have a really fast pivot because, as you said, you have to release really early. And since you are releasing already a bit late (after Start Down), you gotta recover "lost ground".

#3 as a power source.
 

You can not change the order of the Power Accumulators .

In the audio tapes Homer discussed the false feel for power when rolling a bigger #3 angle on the lower planes. The increased Drag feeling more powerful than it really is. He also acknowledged that is often hard to persuade some who are attracted to this procedure to do otherwise . He described "physiological reasons" for letting golfers just enjoy that which they enjoy doing. "The game is supposed to fun after all".

However the physics of it remain unchanged. There is a story about how Lynn called up Homer to discuss the state of his game which had recently taken flight. "Im sending bullets out there". The last thing needed being a few more yards so Lynn could hit more par 5's. The two men discussed the machine adjustments necessary. Amongst other things Homer discussed delaying Release to Snap via the Aiming Point Procedure and of interest to you perhaps... a grip change in the left hand to reduce the #3 angle!! Less #3 angle , less drag upon #3 Rolling , less time required to roll #3 .... all promoting a later release and by design more power.

#2 is Velocity Power , #3 is Transfer Power. #3 angle is important and powerful but nothing compared to #2 for the Swinger. To forsake some #2 angle uncocking in the Release Interval to accommodate more (hefty) #3 angle would lead to a power loss.

For minor basic strokes or two accumulator strokes with no #2.... #3 angle can seem powerful and it is . Hence Homers advice to zero it for the short shots, to better regulate power .

Yes, I understand you. And I understand Homer.

However, what Homer said is true only if you are not strong or for couch-potatoes. The way I analyze it, the stronger you become, that false sense of power Homer pointed out will translate to reality. As you go stronger, the Clubhead speed becomes faster. In fact, there is no limit. The limit of your Strength is the same limit of your Clubhead speed. They're directly proportional to each other. And the bonus is, accuracy or the ClubFACE isn't affected. Why?

Well, relying on PA3 as Rotational Power is much much much more accurate because the ClubHead is coming more from a shallow Angle of Attack/Approach. Cleaner strike, more chance of hitting the ball with the Sweetspot. With PA2 Velocity Power, the Clubhead is coming more from the sky with a steeper AoA. With the lofts on the ClubFace, this makes hitting the ball with the Sweetspot substantially harder.

For a couch potato with no athletic ability yet, PA2 Velocity Power is an excellent option because it provides the most potential Clubhead speed out of the existing strength (or lack of it) of the golfer. Also, this maximum potential Clubhead speed can be accessed and poured out more easily. Why? Because, as you said, this is easier to Release. That Snap Release let that potential power out very easily.

However, for Accuracy, it is HARD. That is why Chipping and Putting is done on a flat and shallow AoA. Try Chipping and Putting with a more Vertical or Steep AoA and add PA2 and what I am saying can easily be understood.

For Hogan, who is very strong, his accuracy explains/proves this---the feasibility of PA3 Rotational Power accompanied by a strong and fast Pivot is another excellent way to swing that darn club.

So I propose or putting forward that a Power Package Combination of PA4/PA3/PA2 is possible for a Swinger. Maybe it is time for amateur golfers to be more consistent and accurate?... :D

Homer put special emphasis on the word ROLL , Its the only word capitalized and italicized in the whole mission critical check list of Homers greatest hits! Hmm that sounds kinda familiar for some reason.

Not rolling is often the missing ingredient in a golfers flail action due to Steering ... the face version that is. But despite the special emphasis , the order in which things occur does not change in a golfers flail or a hitters flail or a farmers flail for that matter. 2 before 3 or 2 and 3 together but never 3 then 2. Not saying you couldn't do it but that would involve a lot of manipulation to pull it off and would be a constant war against the automatic throw out of CF. Easier at lower speeds I guess but why the heck would you want to do that anyways??

In terms of power yes #3 is powerful but nowhere near as powerful as #2 for the swinger . Hmmm or 4B Hitter. Try hammering a nail (with a #2 like uncocking action) then try hammering a nail with a forearm roll (#3 like action) . Im betting on the former for power. The golfer uses them both .

Hogan started uncocking before rolling #3. He was 4/2/3.

Thanks OB.

The Delivery Line Roll Prep, what does it really mean. As of now, I take it to mean that you should have in your mind where or the direction of the Roll by the time you get to the Top, at the latest. Is that correct? So it is a pure mind thing, and timing when you think of it?

MJ,

Didn't he maintained or kept PA2 unreleased during Start Down? PA3 is unreleased as well at Start Down, but I see him Rolling #3 first before uncocking #2 during Downstroke (after Start Down).

Can you provide illustrations/vids/pics of Hogan?

But in any case, I think it is better to just THINK release of #3 rather than THINK #2 first then #3 next.

IMO its a visual guide line with (given the degree of inclination to the plane) an associated club head blur. A guide line for the Release of Accumulated Power. You have to know where to aim all that power.


Assuming Tracing and the arc of approach procedure.

At Top you should :

See the straight line Base Line

Mentally prepare to uncock down plane towards the base line .

Mentally prepare to Roll on plane, "down the line" and see the associated club head blur. The blurred arc of the club head's on plane path.


People tend to: Not uncock down the plane but forward on plane. Steer the face towards the hole. Steer the club head overtop of the straight line plane line...."covering the plane with the club head". All bad stuff geometrically. All very common. To change that you need to change your intentions.

Thanks OB. Any advice on how to Release/Roll #3 after starting to Release #2? Or should you be only thinking #2?

How you think Hogan did it with a Bent L wrist on Top? From Top, Drag Load, then just #2 down on plane/baseline with #3 being released "Automatically"?

At home today , sick, bored . Sorry for the long response .

From Top the intention is to (later in Release) uncock #2 with the left hand turned to plane. Then Roll #3. Be this Auto or Non Auto. Start with Non Auto first then once mastered Auto will appear out of nowhere.


Re Hogan. IMO If the Left Hand lays flat to plane at Top and the left arm in not on plane (and it isn't given any #3 angle to the left hand grip) then ..... there will be some cup to the left hand at Top. More cup for flatter plane angles. The "Flat Left Wrist " is geometrically flat not literally flat to my mind. Did Hogan "double cock".. maybe a touch.

Hogan opened the face wide open , toe down at Top . He was what we used to call an "open to closed" guy.... but with an occasional Angled Hinge . Another anti hook manipulation. An Angled Hinge Swinger , with the reduced club head travel and slight power loss associated with Angled Hinging assuming the same Hand speed. For distance off the tee he could hit draws , Horizontal Hinge it . Fer sure.

Homer considered Hogans Drag Loading to be in his words "the ideal". Drag Loading is I would venture , Hogan inspired. Ground up. Swinging from the feet. So yes he Dragged it .... Dragged the Hands, the butt end down plane towards the base line with the Left and Right Hands turned Flat to Plane . I suspect his Release was full auto Snap. Some have ventured that it was non Auto ... maybe , we'll never know for sure. I know it was a Sequenced Release .. . you can see it.


How should one learn this? Homer suggested we start with a Non Auto in this instance a (Left) Wrist Throw with the Left Hand turned to Plane and then Roll it over at the bottom. Left unblocked its momentum will want to Roll . Then gradually learn to Delay it until the point that it becomes Automatic... entirely produced by CF throwout. Flip Release can get in the way of this graduated approach . For me my goat humping blocked the travel of my right elbow and induced Release ... I subconsciously released to straighten the right elbow so the hands could pass the hips. A zone 1 malady. Fix Zone 1 problems before you move onto Zone 2 problems!! Any attempt to do otherwise will be compromised .

Learning to accelerate Longitudinally really helps. Doing little Acquired Motion drills where you pull the club longitudinally. Stopping at Top also helps on full swings. Going all the way back to End requires a Top Arc before you can get to a place from which to Drag down towards the plane line. Doing some drills where you Float Load can help too. If you're in the process of cocking you can't be in the process of uncocking.

Its all about getting your fully cocked left wrist down plane a little later for most guys, guys who release from Top . The Dragging is a way of Delivering the fully loaded power package down plane to its Release Point. Also a Dragging of the club longitudinally , straight line does not induce CF Throwout theoretically (assuming a straight line) . Once the club head moves outside the orbit of the hands it will go, Throw Out . Think about the ski boat and the water skier. They travel in line at the same speed , then the boat takes a corner and the skier gets thrown out. Thats the pulley wheel he is encountering. The sharper the corner the more he gets thrown out. As a golfer we sharpen the corner , shrink the pulley wheel by delaying release to a later point along the straight line delivery path of the hands from Top. Can the hands actually travel a straight line ? Er no ... not for long , but some delivery paths of the Hands are straighter than others . Profoundly straighter and the physics above is real . Longitudinal then Radial . Stopping at Top as Hogans hands did, as Lynns do will help with the straight line path of the hands and remove all of the problems with the Top Arc.... bounce out , throw out, run off what ever you want to call it. If it goes up there, throws out , its hard to recover it ... like a runaway train.

For you , given your love for Roll the only thing Im wondering is if you are adding some Right Arm in Release. Thats OK . So do I often . If so then you will have to dial that down when learning to Drag. The Active Right Elbow extension , Right Arm Throw needs to be Delayed too. Think of the right arm release as pushing the Left Hand or Right Hand off of its turned to plane condition. It pushes the club head outside the hands immediately. Thereby inducing CF throwout too , even though you are muscling things out . You gotta sneak it down there and then let er rip. Drive loading or Drag . Talking Hitting here for a moment.

Forgive me if your not using your right arm .... just wondering given your lack of feel for the #2 and maybe the left arm. No worries though , Homers Swinging is very much a Right sided deal to my mind. The left arm is inert , string like . Left hand is club face control , only. The left arm does no pulling on full shots it is pulled by the pivot. The left hand is cocked and uncocked by the Right Side , Right Elbow given Extensor Action . So its not a necessarily a left sided swing in ones mind or intentions. It can be a right sided deal . RFT is right sided, EA is right sided , the Right Shoulder is part of the power package and can be a Release Trigger etc etc . Tons of right sided things. Homer is quoted as saying "the left arm is not so wonderful" .


uh ... I could get some heat over this post, but this is where Im at anyways. The learning curve for Drag Loading being: Drag Longitudinally then Non auto left Wrist Throw . Then Drag then Auto Wrist Throw . Then wait for it... Drag then Non Auto Right Arm throw. Non auto right arm throw Snap anyone? Then IMO you can do what Lynn and Ted can do.


PS

One word of caution . When practicing your (left) wrist throw. Actively releasing the #2 down plane towards the plane line with the left hand turned to plane. Do not hold off the Roll at the bottom ..... you can hurt your left wrist very easily! It simply can't take all that force and stop its momentum . Surprisingly low amounts of effort ruin the whole deal. Try it slowly at first uncock and then roll . Just like the swingers flail .. maybe make one out of wood to see how things should work. The roll ensures the left wrist stays flat for instance. Not rolling , Steering breaks the flat left wrist. The flat left wrist , the bent left wrist they're both indicators , products of what is going on.

Darn OB. That was great! Keep it coming. Don't get well soon...lol

I am feeling all L arm right now, from Start Up to Impact. Very L arm at Start Up, Turning my L hand, but same time making sure my R hand cooperates by turning as well, but without moving the R elbow. This makes the R palm facing the Plane early, the back of L hand facing the Plane early...staying on Hands/Shaft plane for quite a bit...then, of course, shifting to Elbow Plane, then later to Turned Shoulder Plane if I really want a very Full Swing, I consider this the Top Arc, but I think this is not Top Arc per TGM because my L hand very seldom goes higher than the Top (Turned Shoulder). All that R arm does for me is make sure the R Elbow remains Pitch and my all the way from Start Up to Start Down, and that my R palm faces the Plane with a Bent R Wrist from Backstroke to Start Down.

Then I just begin the Hip Action, Rotating it but at same time Laterally moving it. At this time I make sure my R Hand/Wrist is still Turned, the R palm still facing the plane, I focus at this time on the R because this is my monkey wrench. Once my R forearm/elbow goes "inside" with R palm still facing the Plane and R wrist Bent, at that split second the Start Down finishes, I just Pivot HARD...L arm not inert at all...it is firing hard from L shoulder to hand...all Roll...all PA3...Dual Horizontal Hinging...if I don't, I hit the ball right...feels like the ClubFACE is Angle Hinging though...if I don't Non-Auto Roll it, feels like the ClubFACE is Vertical Hinging...hope that make sense...my R arm/wrist/hand just goes along for the ride...though I always feel my PP3 pressuring the shaft Radially if I try to feel what is happening with my R hand. My R Elbow never extends, it never fires, or at least I don't encourage it...but sure it straightens, but not intended. Totally no PA1 for me. Then that high hands finish that takes longer than expected to come down...

Notice that I don't think PA2 at all..but yes, it fires/uncocks as well of course...but just very slightly before PA3 releases based on videos...So I guess my PA2 is "Auto", and Releases first, at the end of that Drag Loading...thats why I would say its 4-3-2...that is the Intent...though in reality its 4-2-3. Have lots of #3 angle...don't like tiny #3...makes my L Hand Roll very much and too soon and I hit it all over...makes sense based on TGM, I think, because I don't like PA2...yes, I release it (PA3) early, as early as the Start Down is completed..feels like as soon as I Start Down...but not at the same time it starts...its like Drag and Roll for me...I like the feeling of keeping PA2 unreleased...I know its impossible...but I like that feeling...I avoid ANY feeling of uncocking PA2...almost feels like I'm trying to avoid or prevent it from releasing, though I don't do anything to keep it unreleased...

No, I am not sick...that is just me...lol...

It should be inert! - the Left Flying Wedge rolls(Throwout) because the left shoulder is moving off plane, being driven by the right shoulder. Rolling the left wrist gives Hor. Hinging and is completely independent of Throwout. Hinge action of the left wrist doesn't mean the left arm is "active".

Maybe that is just what I feel..but yeah, it is actually, if I come to think of it, really just going along for the ride...the ride or main engine being the L shoulder/PA4/pivot...yeah, Inert...Lifeless...

But MJ, my R shoulder is never firing...if it does, I sure never felt or intended it...

Yeah, I feel my L wrist is firing, but I feel or "think" more about my L Elbow...very important to me as it helps my L arm behave "properly"... Does this L Elbow move of mine still qualifies my L arm as Inert?

I can only conclude that you're pulling with your left shoulder, which will drag the right shoulder and RFW. This not only sacrifices power, but can mess up impact alignments. You should drive the right shoulder down plane, propelling PP#3 through impact. There's a good reason why TGM hardly makes mention of the left shoulder.

I hope by firing the left wrist, you mean rolling it, which is the only legitimate left wrist move you can make.

I'm also confused by your contradictory statements that your left arm is inert, and that you also make a "L Elbow move". If it's the move that T Bertrand claims that Hogan made, I recommend not doing it. Any left elbow move would make the left arm active, not inert.

In summary, I think, like a lot of Hogan followers, you're probably trying to execute the golf stroke like a left-handed, top-spin tennis stroke. And that's a road to somewhere you don't want to go. :naughty:

Even for a Swinger, the L arm is inert? Why? What is TGM's rationale for this?

Re L elbow turn, why do you not recommend that? The way I see it now, it is the same as turning the L wrist, just with more consistency. And, it is sorta like just an insurance that the L forearm will behave properly at Impact and FollowThru---L elbow bending but not retracting backwards laterally to the side and remaining in front of the torso (not chicken winging), with the L forearm/wrist still being able to turn to the fullest/efficiently and L forearm going upwards. So input power is being transferred efficiently to the L wrist and to the clubhead.

And, for a Swinger who is using #4 anyway, why would turning the L elbow make the L arm exert (not inert)? The way I see it now, the L arm being Exert (sorry, easier to type...lol) will only be unwanted IF the Swinger slows down or doesn't use #4 and then rely on Exerting his L arm to Swing the club. But this is not what I'm saying. I'm saying its #4 that is the MAIN pulling power, with #3 just being made sure to perform to transfer that power to the clubhead. The L elbow turn is just for that---Transfer of Power. That's why #3 it is called Transfer Power, correct? The L elbow turn ENSURES that...no? So why not help that Transferring of Power?

SWINGER OR HITTER the left arm is INERT meaning it is simply a length to be maintained, it is the same as if you replaced your left arm with a rope, IT HAS NO MUSCULAR CONTRIBUTION, it's only contribution is it's maintained natural length to provide structure and radius to the swing. the left elbow should not bend until the FINISH not the follow through, the right arm should never be straight until the end of the FOLLOW THROUGH. the arm movement you're describing sounds as if you are not clearing the left hip, THE LEFT HIP MUST CLEAR OUT to allow both arms to get to both arms straight while making room for a full roll on plane without any strange lifting or bending of the left arm as you are describing.

ALL swingers are using #4 IT IS THE MASTER ACCUMULATOR, IT must be released first it provides the main power source of the gear train. I have no idea what you mean by turning the left elbow makes it 'exert'....

Do not concern yourself with left elbow turning, focus more on the right elbow and the left hip and left wrist for proper swivel and hinge.

turning the left elbow from the top will not "help" the #3 accumulator, the only way to help or rather ensure that you get the transfer of the #3 accumulator power is to uncock the left wrist on plane and CLEAR the left hip, that is GET OUT OF THE WAY clear that left hip!

Not sure you're talking about the same move: when you say "elbow turn" I see (and it looks like MizunoJoe too) a movement of the entire arm from the shoulder. That could intefere with the pressure on #4. #3 release is pronation/supination, a movement of the forearm ("wrist movement" in TGM terms).

No, #3 release(Throwout) is the LFW being driven off-plane by the driving right shoulder in order to deliver the sweetspot to the ball.

What?? Throwout is defined by centrifugal force acting on the clubhead which does effect the roll but more aptly it is the number two accumulator being thrownout. The #4 acc is what is driven out by the right shoulder via the instant acceleration hip action. Etzwayne got it right why would the right shoulder drive the clubhead OFFplane to deliver the sweetspot you don't have to be OFFplane to hit the ball not sure where u came up with that.

Good grief! :confused1 :eyes: :sad2: :( ](*,)

Yeah, the L elbow turn is a CCW movement of the whole upper arm from shoulder to elbow.

But actually, it helps add pressure to #4. When I turn my L elbow (whole upper arm bone actually), my L triceps "presses" into the side of my chest/torso/armpit. So it doesn't interfere with #4, in fact it helps a lot. I actually don't feel PP#4 much when I don't turn the L elbow.

Re #3 release as supination..movement of the forearm/wrist movement...moving the upper arm actually will move the elbow, which in turn moves the forearm, which in turn the wrist...it is just like painting but you are holding the paintbrush at the opposite end...turning the forearm or wrist itself is like holding the paintbrush near the brush...

So, let's ask a painter which one is better?...:eyes:

What's better is to actually understand release of #3, and neither one of those is correct. The driving right shoulder moves the LFW off plane and the RFW on plane at Impact. The left shoulder, and entire left arm, including the elbow, should be inert. The left wrist can full roll(requires manipulation), half roll(happens naturally - no manipulation required), or unrolled(requires manipulation) , but that's Hinge Action, not #3 release.

Hmmm...I see...so what's the #3 Release? So my intentional roll is actually just manipulation resulting to Full Roll. How do you Release #3 in TGM then? The Throw Out? Just CF?

Nitpicking maybe, but the LAW is never on plane. The only way it could have been on plane was if the left shoulder was on plane, something it never is - at least not before impact - except for us lefties ;-)

Bernt,
That's not nitpicky - just identifying a gross error in description - which your notation would help any newbie from becoming confused.

Yes, the driving right shoulder along with tracing the Plane Line with PP#3 rolls the LFW, whether or not you roll the left wrist intentionally. Angled Hinged Swingers also, have Throwout.

Welcome to Neverland at :55

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=psZpj2ygx00

The gross error in description in this thread is the description of Throwout being the rotation of the left wrist. Interesting that neither of you two non-nitpickers were concerned enough about possible newbie confusion to point it out. :(

Not even close. Just look at the plane of the club shaft as it starts moving down.

At :55 the shaft isn't starting down and the entire LFW including the left shoulder is dead on plane. I guess a nitpicker's "never" isn't as precise as might be expected. :naughty:

FYI - that link doesn't take me to a golf swing. Not starting down? Please tell me you didn't change the context of your discussion again!

Be my guest.

But I was talking about the forward motion, MizunoJoe. And so were you, btw.

He crosses the line at the top, but even then, at 1:06 that's close enough to on-plane to make the point that it moves substantially more off plane at the onset of Throwout, which is the important point and the one which you two are dancing around. Had he stopped his BS at :55 with the shaft parallel to the plane line and started down, what would your evasive dance step be?

As for not seeing a golf swing at that link, you might ask your dance partner how he managed to see it. :laughing9

maybe you could find the exact youtube address, so we could see what you are talking about.

Here's a link that works.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=psZpj2ygx00

Instead of not responding - I'd like to say Joe - as I predicted - for me - you're a tough guy to communciate with - zI'm sure you've been around the game a long time and have a great deal of golf knowledge - wish you the best.