How much Cen Force
 

I have for a while taken a break from HITTING altogether in weekly game and use swinging ,every now and then I will have a HIT to keep it oiled so to speak.
The question I have is "how much "centrifugal force controls the swingers hit,let me explain,in practice mode,I will pitch with 9ir thru to 6ir sometimes a 3or4ir to around110-120 mtres using absolultly no hand of finger pressure at all other than holding on to club purposes,when I do this,the lag feeling huge,and good btw,now,when swinger is in full flight,"how much" should the hands actually do when swing gets to release,is it still C/force or do the hands actually hit.........hope you follow my question thanks in advance:salut:

"How much"?

Hands
 

Daryl,again thank you friend,sort of figured something along those lines,Cos,everytime I use hands,I lose that "feel" and the hit is sooo different.Now,if I can keep ,em out of play life would be better.I going to start making myself a checklist .Now,transition:salut:

I think it's been calculated that a 5 iron swinging at 80 mph is "pulling" on your hands with around 75 pounds of force at impact.

FLW....V BLW at top
 

Since I found TGM and began using it,I for some reason have always strived to achieve FLW "at top" of swing and relied on it through the entire swing through to finish. That being said,I came across the double wrist-cock 10-18-B,This endorses the wrist being bent at top of stroke (I believe it can add to B/swing length or clubhead travel would be more to the point,as I see it,its a valid stroke componant so long as the club is allowed to find its own in line condition at or very near impact.

Is this correct,Im really getting involved in the swingers pattern the help Im getting here is giving me a real head start into swingers pattern and Im enjoying it thanks in advance:salut:

While the Flying Wedges are Aligned at 90 degrees, each degree of Left Wrist Bend will inversely Flatten the Right Wrist. This increases "Velocity" by decreasing (sacrificing) Mass. The "closer to the Ball" (delayed release) the less Mass (increased Velocity).

That "feeling" you have of needing to allow it "to find its own in-line condition at or very near Impact" is "Mechanically" correct. As the Left Wrist Uncocks, it is also Flattening, and the Right Wrist is correspondingly/simultaneously "Bending". During the Impact Interval, the Left Wrist is Flat and the Right Wrist is Bent.

Once CF begins to pull on the Clubhead, it will control the Orbit. Any Hand Manipulation at Release will "Stifle" CF. Which brings us back to the beginning of it all: "Dead Hands".

From Top To Release
 

Everything is going great guns in the Swing so far,But my concern is that I seem to be making a very hard task of getting to release "Load Intact",I am trying very very hard to get in correct position withoutlosing lag.
I am trying to get in the "Hogan" release position,No secret here that Im using Hogans book in conjunction with TGM,Now,I am starting my downswing from ground-up and have tightened my pivot somewhat,R/hip back.....L/hip back,but somehow,Im still losing lag,is there some drill that will seperate hip and shoulders but still working as one,Im not too far away,as Ive hit some great shots,but its consistancy Im seeking........any help please.....cheers and thanks in advance.....BM

I think I understand what you are asking;
The hands should be heavy and driven through impact- Drag that wet mop- but, the hands do not manipulate the club. Hogan talks about the heavy medicine ball. This is all accomplished with rhythm. If you don't do this U are likely quitting. So many do. I like to do some practice at the extremes. Trajectory control with a 64 or 68 wedge, low and crisp, with the ball forward of center. High and low with a 1 iron, needs good rhythm with no quitting. Just my feelings

HB

Slowly I turned...
 

Try rotating your Pivot from the Top slower. Over-accelerating and Over-Loading the Pivot will cause you to Release sooner than you would like as well as cause Balance issues.

Thanks Guys
 

Thanks Drew,I never saw your post before I went for hit.
What I did today that was different from the norm,was to keep R elbow tucked in a bit more,ala Ben H,that change in itself brought on a complete different "feel",it felt so much more compact and the big thing I found was my hands were more in front of my torso,and I was able to get into the release pos easier.
That was early this morn,I have to do some work now,but will try it deeper later.....Again thanks...:salut:

There is some seriously BAD advice in 5L, which may be the cause of your problem, namely the feel of throwing the basketball toward the target. It's OK as long as the pivot alone does the throwing, but most do it with an independent arm/hand effort.

Any effort of the arms/hands towards the target is steering, which causes all sorts of problems, especially lag loss.

Im getting confused
 

As the heading states,Im getting confused "again",yes I do agree with you in so far as he does use hands "hard",As my topic header states,"how much cen force", so,.. I do actually have more "lag" with full centrifugal swing and they in simple terms a better feeling stroke with compression,but, I could be wrong here,so correct me if Im wrong....one of Lynns vids with golfgnome regarding release,I thought Jeff stated that he gripped with tight grip and hit down into impact "hard" hence my confusion friend.

I did state I could be wrong,wont be a first time for me lol.
I wont advance past this point in my practice until Im sure of what is the right course........cheers again and thanks

That's the key word, down. Hands go down, but the forward arcing of the clubhead comes from the pivot. For the Turned Shoulder Plane Swing, it's simple, just drive pp#3 down plane towards the inside of the ball(or another nearby aiming point) using the right shoulder. For the Turning Shoulder Plane, you drive the hands downward to a suitable aiming point as the shoulders turn flatter. In any case, it's CF alone that uncocks the left wrist after it drives, or is driven by the pivot, to release point.

Short thumb?
 

Do Hogan's left hand on club check with a short thumb. It works for set-up and the whole swing or hit.

ICT:)

Plane as day
 

Thank you again guys for your clearing the fog for me,as I now see it,cen force rules.As for Mr Hogans swing,I do not wish to replicate his swing ....Im not that good,but the tucked in elbow in backswing has helped me immensly ,I was obviously chicken winging to an extent .
Just one more thing if I may,Im assuming if I needed more ooomph in my swing for whatever reason,without breaking any "laws",I would add R/elbow thrust on release to aiming point?:salut:
Thanks again........

Yes, you can thrust your hands downward using the arm muscles, including the right tricep, as long as you keep the wristcock intact for CF to do the uncocking. Shoot the loaded wrist and turn hard through impact! I can't prove it, but I believe it's the most powerful way to Swing with a hand controlled pivot.

Old Faithful
 

Forgive me Yoda for I have sinned,I played 2 games in as many days,I did set out to use swing pattern but in my want to win or at least score well,I resorted back to olde faithful Hitter pattern,alas,1 win in 4 man amb.......3rd in single,but I dont care,its good to have that reliable pattern to fall back on,the tighter the f/way ....the harder I thrust....one could say...trust the thrust.....just had to share:)

Finger grip
 

Interesting play time today,using swinging with finger grip,very neutral and really just let the cen force thing go with absolute minimal grip pressure but really forced myself to swing with shaft sitting very much in last joints on fingers,so long as my shoulders rotated fully the ball went high and long,could possibly enjoy this,nooo vibration whatsoever........have a play with it guys and give some feedback,cheers

fingergrip
 

I mowed our course for 5 hrs as the others cleaned up the course(working bee),after we played 4 holes....I played only with a 3 ir,1st hole bogey,2nd hole 198 mt P3 on for 1.......2nd hole P3 145 mt on, putted and got 2 with 3ir as putter...4th hloe 170mt P 3 bit long ,but chipped on and 2 putted with 3 ir,.......my point is 2 fold,1....how solid the swing was with finger grip(I must have been using too much palm grip),,2...what a great excercise....using 1 club........thought I would share:salut:

2hbp
 

The 2HBP is the feeling of maximum radius during release. The smaller the pully the more exaggerated the feel.

Bumpy

????
 

Sorry Bumpy,Im slow on the uptake here.....2HBP..?
I like the max release....cheers

2HBP = two handed basketball pass.

The smaller the pulley, the heavier the ball. I think Hogan used an 8#, if it gets to heavy I lose power. You got to be a giant if you want to make it work right. Pivot power transfer to zone 2?

I may be just rambling, thank god for Homer, Hogan too.

Bumpy

Thanks to Homer for getting it right when he says no hand effort toward the target, but no thanks to Hogan for his misleading 2HBP illustration in 2L, which 99 of 100 readers will take to mean a horizontal hand/arm effort through impact, i.e. steering, disrupting impact alignments, stifling CF, and distorting the arc of the clubhead. &B:

As far as the 2hbp goes, I can see the potential for disruption if using a big pulley.

AC

Grips?
 

As a matter of interest only,Why do club grips have a taper,I mean most putters have flat grips,(sort off)but some early day grips were not tapered..........has this got anything to do with "gripping light",by this mean,..ie..if there was no taper ,one would have squeeze a bit more to hold grip properly imo...not earth moving,purely,interest.......cheers:salut:

Accentuating the pass!
 

B, Imagine a stiff wall stopping your head from moving. Throw against it throwing your hands past your head. I even look at my right shoulder so I can sling the hands using the body only slightly or dropping the right elbow to start the sling. I apologize if I am misleading here as my artificial hip is different than your front hip but those are my feelings. Watch Lynn and how subtle his movement is for the correct flail! Compare it with the problem with head movement! The club does the work!

http://youtu.be/EDNCLchMYRI

Good luck.

ICT!

No kidding that comment screwed me up for years!
 

Thanks for the clarity MJ. Brilliant! :salut:


ICT

ICT, the brilliance belongs entirely to TGM. :salut:

Catch-up
 

Im struggling with release and in need of some wisdom....i have been getting mixed results and indeed mixed distances with my Swinging Pattern,as I getting in to release,I feel that my swing centre is far too early just using the rotating shoulders and gravity,and cent /force,I have been playing with manually getting my R/elbow more into the "pitch"position.
This seems to be getting my hands into a better position for releasing than just using Shoulder/rotation,my pivot feels ok but my swing feels "better" by moving my r/elbow and has the feeling that I pulling the shaft down into release in a straighter line from the top.
Am I doing something wrong by using this action or is it OK?

Thanks in advanceBM:read:

Here's the part of the book I believe you're alluding to. Ive taken the liberty of bolding the particular sentence of interest.

Try keeping your elbows close together at address and all the way to the top, like Hogan suggests in 5L, and you won't have to move it. Then make sure all the pulling is done by pushing the right shoulder.

That's it! Thanks, OB :salut:

The inert left arm .
 

This is a lost point for most. There is no left arm pull for any strokes that include #4 pivot power. For a Pull Minor Basic Stroke a one accumulator stroke that zeroes the pivot yes you pull the left arm with left arm muscle . But for other strokes the left arm , the #4 accumulator is moved, thrown off , by the pull of the Pivot , the left shoulder specifically since it attaches to the left , which is directed and powered by the on plane push of right shoulder and before it the hips . Assuming ground up, swinging from the feet.