Useful or just not the truth
 

What do you think of this advice?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v0vs...layer_embedded

In my book the difference is plane angles = flatter/more from the inside with the driver, steeper/less from the inside with the wedges.

Turning the plane or even "do a little loop" like this guy suggests, isn't it a very dangerous road to travel??

But then again the Hogan reference ....

What do you think?

Nothing wrong with Rotating your Plane Line . I personally use the method he's describing with the Driver when Im hitting up on the ball ....... when I tee the ball forward of low point. I rotate my plane line to the right slightly if I wish to off set the fade tendency.

In regard to Hogan, while his stance line did go from open to closed ...it was not indicative of where his Plane Line was pointing. So, I do not believe Hogan tried to hit intentional straight shots very often and I really doubt he used the geometry as described in the video to do so. Thats a pretty big assumption. Man.

Trackman's measurements are probably spot on but the deductions derived there from are ....how should I say this....less precise. Thats ok though. Its a process right. So what. Ive got absolutely no problem with Trackman or any of those machines.. none , zero. Wish they had a usable $500 version actually.

This video is total DRIBBLE. I admit that after 60 seconds I had to stop watching because I couldn't keep up with the errors.

such as?
(I just want to know, I'm not trying to be a wise guy etc.)

I would love to hear what was seen as errors also.........

“What do you need to do to become both a good “Driver” and a good “Iron” Player? Stop twisting the Clubshaft for Impact (Swivel) and start Hinging.

Drivers and Irons "Twist" Differently because their Centers of Gravity have different Locations. So by the time a Hacker gets a feel for the Center of Gravity of his Irons, he can't hit his Driver... Stop Twisting and Start using the "Right Forearm Angle of Approach". Otherwise, as soon as you break your $300.00 Driver you'll buy one for $400.00 and need to learn all over again. Really? Ya, really.

Homer Kelley didn't invent the "Right Forearm Angle of Approach", he discovered it after years of research and tens of thousands of observations of Hackers and Good Ball Strikers. All Pro's and all good Ball Strikers use the RFAOA procedure. All of them. You cannot be a good ball striker without it. So, until it's learned, you'll always be a Hacker no matter how many trips to the Trackman you make or however many lessons you pay for. You have two choices: Twist or use the RFAOA. It's because of this that some players when first learning to play begin with a 10 handicap and others are doomed to Hackersville for life.

Learning to Swing the Club “Differently” is not the solution. All clubs, from Putter to Driver SHOULD and CAN be swung using the same Pattern. One needs to understand the “Right Forearm Angle of Approach” and the simple concepts of “Low Point” and the “Geometry of the Circle”.

It seems that teachers using "Trackman" have no concern for learning these concepts as long as they get you to buy into the belief that Drivers and Wedges should be swung differently. WOW, it's such a great marketing effort: "It's not you, it's the Club". It's so refreshing. :liar:

To Start:

"Low Point" is not a Location, it's an Alignment. And the Alignment uses a basic geometry that's built into all Golf Clubs by All Manufacturers; "Neutral Hookface".

So,,,when the LCOG is on the Plane Angle of the Lie Angle and the Shaft is perpendicular to a Parallel Plane and Target Line (Clubface) the Ball will travel Straight (Low Point Separation). We can talk about elastic and inelastic collisions and how Hinge action works but who has the time?

"Low Point" is an Intersection. You don't need to strike the Ball at Low-Point to hit it straight, but you do need to know the "Geometry of the Circle" to Hit it Straight from multiple Locations. Yes, Multiple Ball Locations. Anywhere within your Stance, At or Behind Low-Point, the Ball can be hit straight. TGM.




Who wants to explain the RFAOA? Then, the Geo of the Cir (fun) and how to use the Plane Angle Reference Points (more fun). You'll be hitting everything straight in a matter of minutes.

So Daryl, what specifically in short version do you disagree with in this video? Do you think the worlds top players generally make one swing and change only ball position?

Let me ask you a question. Do you really think that it's easier to learn to swing 1 degree upright for your Wedges and 2 degrees flatter for your 5 iron or Play your wedges 4.45398" back and your 5 iron 2.87456" back? How would you handle a downhill or side hill lie? Have you ever used Trackman while in a Bunker?

First and foremost is Angle of Approach and Angle of Attack. Re-aligning the Hoola-hoop is not Angle of Approach. Certainly there's a "correlation" and Trackman capitalizes on this. But it's very misleading.

On the Circle, Angle of Approach and Angle of Attack are ALWAYS zero. Only in a relationship between the Neutral Hookface design of the Club, on-Plane and seeking the Target Line intersection, can we have an Angle of Approach and Angle of Attack. So, all AOA and AOA need to reference Low-Point. Trackman doesn't know where Low-Point is located and Trackman doesn't use the Face geometry of the Club. First, because Low-Point isn't a Location and second because Trackman doesn't capture or measure the Clubface geometry.

SO, Trackman teachers rely on a flawed correlation which cannot possibly correct a swing flaw that has nothing to do with it anyway. You'll end up with a different swing for every club in the bag. Instead of learning one compensation, you end up learning many. Much more effort, frustration and learning than doing it right to begin with. Swinging on a steeper Plane doesn't turn a Hacker into a Golfer.

If a Hacker learns the Right Forearm Angle of Approach, then he/she will flush a 2 iron as easily as his Pitching Wedge and, he can use any Plane Angle he wants.

Any teacher worth his salt would use trackman as a tool and not a replacement for instruction. Trackman measures 3d movement of clubhead through interval..........so, if it tells you that you hit x amount down and club was moving y amount right, wheres the problem? Surely we can all agree that the best alter angle of attack (and therefore path) to achieve certain shots from time to time. As in everytime they play golf. Problem with rotating to change a shot is Aofa changes with it, or at least that's been my experience. Sorry to ramble, but Im still not sure I've heard what you disagree with from the video. In a short sentence for us dumb redneck folks if you could please : )

Hey JT

Homer had a personal preference for Grip Rotation over Plane Line Rotation I believe too. Manipulated Hands Swinging or Hitting.

Can I ask for an opinion on the geometry of the straight shot presented above?

K, so and correct me if I have this wrong, assuming a short iron say, ball back of low point, club face square to the Arc of Approach (therefor pointing right of target, no divergence in path and face). To hit the straight shot at the target you then rotate the plane line to the left accordingly.

I can see this as producing a straight ball, no problem. But wouldn't this be a higher flying , shorter shot given the added loft of the opened club face? I see it as a great way to get over a tree say. Maybe I have things wrong. If I don't , why doesn't this show up in the data ?

Me I just Rotate the Clubface back to square per (dang is it 7-3) and expect a slight draw if anything. But there isn't much of one due to the steeper plane angles associated with short irons. Less divergence , less Out , more Down . I use that logic on the other side of low point sometimes for the driver , but take the draw (ish) and the true loft , compression every time with short irons. Now in bunkers I do that just sometimes......if I want to avoid a hop to the right you get with the open plane cut shot.

That and the HOgan thing trouble me. I dunno.

Thanks Pro.

The Topic of the Video was "Hitting the Ball Straight using a Driver requires a different Swing than when using an Iron".

We (a few) know that Striking the Ball with an Angular Force so that the Ball responds as though it were struck by a Linear Force, requires the Clubface to be Square to the Angle of Approach at Contact (create the Line of Compression) and rotate that Line of Compression to become square to the Target at Separation. Without equal pressure on the Horizontal Plane (the Ball and Clubface rotate around the Impact Point), the Ball will develop Side Spin.

In a nutshell. If the Clubhead is traveling 5 degrees inside-out and the Impact Interval is 1/4" (5 iron), how do you Rotate 5 degrees in that short of a distance?

If you Strike the Ball with a Clubface Square to the Target and at separation it remained square to the Target, then How do you manage equal lateral pressure on the Ball if the Clubhead is traveling as little as 1 degree from inside-down and out?

It really comes down to how the numbers are interpreted. I talk with professionals who use TrackMan and say it confirms the work of Homer Kelley. For those who go the other direction, it can have a lot to do with marketing and justifying the purchase. If I spend $25,000 on a calculator, I'm going to want it to change the way I teach, and try to further the idea that it's not possible to be a good teacher without it. I'm not rich enough to buy one, and don't think I'm full of enough BS to sell it as the only way. Used properly, it can be a great addition to the tool box.

Kevin

Different swings?
 

When he's talking about different clubs and angles - it seem to boil down to different set ups - not so much different swings - from a wedge to the driver?

Hey OB,
Now this is just me talking first of all. Im not tryng to debunk any theories by any means, just sharing what Ive seen and experienced.......but, while an open face would hit it higher if that were the only parameters, I would hope we don't have the ball so far back that a face is very open to the target at impact (unless we're trying to hit a high draw which would also be a less than stock shot.) Even with that though, angle of attack is going to determine trajectory way more than a face being 1 or 2 degrees open to a target. So, yes i would agree that most (not all) better players that get ball back, will end up swinging shallow and to the right eventually. The only thing I would say to the video is that you don't have to move the "whole" hoola hoop.
On your method, Im curious, have you taken video (DTL) of the a stock shot versus the one when you close face at address and compared? Every single time I have or taken video of a good player do this they actually change plane lines, particularly exits relative to target line.

Air, not really that different. They assume playing the driver more forward. Impact further forward on the inclined plane. The feeling is the further back on the plane you strike the ball, the more inside out the path of the clubhead. Makes sense geometrically?

I know Yoda has worked with TrackMan and would love to hear his thoughts along with Mr. Tillery's, I would guess they are on the same page???

Hogan
 

He also made a reference to Hogan who perfered an open stance on the shorter shots and somewhat closed stance with the driver.

"Let me ask you a question. Do you really think that it's easier to learn to swing 1 degree upright for your Wedges and 2 degrees flatter for your 5 iron or Play your wedges 4.45398" back and your 5 iron 2.87456" back? How would you handle a downhill or side hill lie? Have you ever used Trackman while in a Bunker?"

I hope my 5 iron swings more than 2 degrees flatter than my wedge....but I teach one ball position concerning feet. Changes relative to lowpoint via width. Besides, is the 2.87456 from the front, middle, or back of the ball?

Sidehill/downhill?...same things, just changes attack angles and therefore path. Kind of handcuffed on trajectory.

Greenside bunkers? No, I havent. But things are a little more straight forward from 5 yards.


"In a nutshell. If the Clubhead is traveling 5 degrees inside-out and the Impact Interval is 1/4" (5 iron), how do you Rotate 5 degrees in that short of a distance?"

That rotating the plane line 5 degrees deal is something you will want to do before the clubhead is touching the ball. But why are we swinging 5 degrees inside out for straight ball flight?

"If you Strike the Ball with a Clubface Square to the Target and at separation it remained square to the Target, then How do you manage equal lateral pressure on the Ball if the Clubhead is traveling as little as 1 degree from inside-down and out?"

How do you make ball go straight if face is at target and path is down and to the right?....... I believe that's what this guy is trying to answer in the video.

Thanks Kev, that's where I was headed!

Happy to assist PRO!

Kevin

Thanks JT


Ive never goofed around with it on video or a Trackman personally ... which is why I was curious about whether the data reflected a floater type shot.

But ya I bet the plane line changes. Release maybe too. I see a lot of guys demonstrating ball flight laws , path vs face but showing a little hanky panky going on in their release. Ive got no problem with this, its just the tools of the trade. Its automatic.

There are so many arguments you could make to counter the suggestion that Hogan's Plane Line was square to his Stance Line (to square up Face and Path to hit a straight shot via plane rotation)

-Stance Line has more to do with Pivot Motion than direction.... the feet are so far away from the shoulders. You can swing in to out off of an open stance , easily.

-With the driver his feet were closed but his knees , hips, shoulders were generally square.

-the foot lines drawn do not correspond to the arc . Not even close. The hula hoop used to describe the arc in the video is no where near as large as the actual club head orbit. Exaggerating the degrees of left or right as you forward or back along the arc. When you look at the arc of approach when scaled properly its surprisingly less curved than you'd think especially for shorter irons with steeper plane angles.

My problem again, is more with the procedure as it relates to the shorter irons than the longer clubs . I just don't see good players opening the face as much as suggested and then squaring it to the hole via plane line rotation. Ya it'd be straight , but weak too . I think. Wouldn't it?

OB,
Help me understand what you mean by opening the face that much and rotating to square it back up. Do you see it as kind of an open face push that they're aiming left to accomodate?

Ok let me try again. I see videos of these guys talking about hitting straight shots with the following logic: Given a square plane line and balls back of low point the face which is square to the path and the path both point to the right, no divergence . (Producing a straight push , but under powered I think due to the open face). To hit it straight at the target the recommendation as I understand things is to rotate the plane line to the left . Giving you a straight shot at the target yes.. but to my mind one hit with more than true loft ... sorta like a cut shot but with no divergence.

I just don't see good players hitting straight shots like this ... unless they're trying to hit it higher than normal .

Gotcha. I don't see a face open to target at impact as weak. Big old bombing draws touch the ball with open faces. With that being said, I would agree with you that better players aren't hitting wedges with open faces and rotating to straighten the "push". I see it as only getting pushed if you catch the inside of the ball, and when better players hit short irons, they hit down and control trajectory and spin.........and they swing left of target nearly always to produce this and balance out the angle of attack, because alot of down and right leads to the dirty "s" word!

Yup agreed but if Im understanding the procedure above correctly the face is opened to the plane line. In the draw scenario you describe the face is closed to the plane line (but open to the target) .... a nuked , low lofted , draw shot resulting.

Going back to the video's logic if you were to keep rolling the face open to the plane line you could lay the club right on its back like for a lob shot say. Turn your 60 degree lob wedge into an 80 degree or whatever.

I know thats not the way the video describes things as its not a cut shot procedure (using common golf speak) but you are adding some loft when the face is open to the plane. To me it sounds like taking a straight push shot and rotating the plane so you hit the push shot at the hole. A floater depending on how much loft you've added.

Maybe the Arcs curve is so slight that the amount of opening is slight and the whole thing is negligible ? The hula hoop exaggerates things as the scale is so wrong. I dunno.

Nice talking to you JT.

All big draws (tee balls especially) I see are hit with open faces; open to the plane line and target.....but closed to the path. Very rarely do I see better players hitting straight or pull draws. Not intentionally. Most always would be a double cross.

Regarding the video, the face wouldn't have to be open just because he is hitting down. Even at that, if it were open, the amount of down would still determine trajectory. It won't be a floater with a face thats a few degrees open if really down. If we're giving him that downward blows create path to the right, then an equal face (as you mentioned) would be a straight push, a more square face produces a push draw, a square face produces a straight draw/hook, and a closed face produces a pull hook. A lot of factors from the golfer jump into the mix to get these numbers though, and I think that's what often gets left out. Everything is crystal clear for the hoola hoop machine. :laughing1
Anyway, the suggestion would be that a fix by closing the face at addres would just hit a straight draw, still no straight away ball flight (though most will unknowingly change path from this visual). Or that a fix from rotating (as he showed I would argue) would increase attack angle, and we're right back to where we started.

**THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH THESE HOOLA HOOP VIDEOS ABOUT THIS, IS THEY DRAW THE TANGENT FROM ONE ATTACK ANGLE, THEN INCREASE THAT ATTACK ANGLE BY ROTATING THE WHOLE HOOLA HOOP LEFT WHILE LEAVING THE TANGENT MARKER ON THE SAME SPOT OF THE HOOLA HOOP ***

WHAT A GAME :confused1 :confused1 :confused1

- ENJOYED IT O.B.!!! :salut:

Moe's open face
 

Because we are expecting [finally] not a baby but our first baby snowfall of the winter, I find my ever wandering mind thinking of Moe Norman. Just for yucks a couple of days back when we had a 52 degree day, I found myself thinking of Lee Westwood, Moe, and what I think they have in common which is a little chicken wing! :happy3: Talk about an open face and square to the target line for a long time:thumleft:

Moe said he played "through the middle of the golf course" and controlled his trajectory by his ball position in his stance. Anyway, not completely on the topic, and not germane to the forward swivel I hope to master, but sometimes opposites inform as well as correct guided practice (a little teaching lingo there). :idea1:

It is fun being able to control the ball in different ways! It is good to be a golfer on the LBG golf forum and I suppose, It is good to be the king.

http://youtu.be/KuMQjKiaDTg

Since I'm pretending to be the king at this moment, show me your LBG decoding rings and badges!

http://youtu.be/CGcVhoHdRFo

Yes, I have thread jacked this a bit, but it was for the sake of humor and no harm was done to any living creature during this thread jacking. Anyway, it seemed like you guys were finished and I enjoyed the well-written concepts and wanted to show my fondness of the whole concept you know? "I am verifiably non-belligerent!"

http://youtu.be/-YQJOe7yGT0



Peace out!

ICT

Kids These Days
 

We're old enough to appreciate experience and talent. Every time I see these scientists with expensive calculators and pocket protectors disrespecting the legends, players and teachers, I cringe. Things always need to move forward, but there were lots of greats with lots of solid information that will stand the test of time.

Kevin

I dont see why there has to be so much acrimony with Trackman. To me, it supports the idea of the plane being the boss and fits very well with TGM. The idea of where the club is and how it is moving when on plane through the ball to low point seems spot on. Couldnt we agree that the steeper the angle of attack down plane before low point with a wedge means there is more out remaining to account for? With a driver, arent we striking the ball closer to the bottom of the plane when there is not as much out, if any left to go? If we hit the driver slight up, isnt the outward part of the plane motion over? The first time I saw an explanation of the so called D plane, I experimented on a homemade plane board. My first thought was: Cool, those machine guys have always known this.

No acrimony with TrackMan here. My problem is with the way some are interpreting the data and misrepresenting the numbers to further their agendas while bashing others.

Kevin

I think Homer would have loved to have a Trackman in his garage. He might not have agreed with some of the "deductions" though. Thats normal though right? Sorta like a bunch of doctors looking at a radiology report . You get different opinions. Then you got your bartender looking at the report and giving you his opinion.

Got be careful with who's opinion your trusting. You're insurance salesman is trying to sell you more life . Your barber thinks you need a shave. You trainer thinks you need to work out more etc.

Nothing wrong with the machine though.

Homer would have used the Trackman gismo as a door stop. It's a poor substitute for understanding the geometry of the Golf Swing. Knowing how poorly your stroke performs is not the first step to correcting it.

I wouldn't spend a nickle on a teacher who bought and/or uses Trackman. They should have named it the "ACME Golf Swing Fixer-upper".

So if you use a forty year old book as your only resource, you have all the answers, but any current technology you aren't any good??? A guy that wrote and re-wrote a book seven times was obviously interested in getting it right. Do you seriously think he wouldn't use every resource possible if alive today?

Do you think the data it is able to collect is inaccurate? That would sway me.

Homer WAS the walking trackman of his era. He brought information to the masses that no one had.......some embraced it, and surely many immediately beat up on him and discredited him versus looking into it. To act as if he would just overlook anything and everything as if he already had every answer on every topic, while meant as a defense, is a discredit to his dedication.

Yup. Homer was in a real fight in his day. Up against guys who thought the balls initial direction was a product of path. "How could Jacks ball flight rules be wrong?" " The greatest golfer of all time , arguably ." etc. To which Homer reasoned that the laws of physics can not be ignored by anybody , even by Jack. That to curve the ball as he wished , he must have complied with physics . Even if only subconsciously. Very few could buy this explanation understandably but in the end he was right. Its something I find interesting. All those perfect little cut shots Jack hit , all those guys hit. Man. I did it myself too. Weird.

Sean Foley said that he watched Jack's clinic at the Memorial a few years back and saw him as shaping the shot with his path. Despite the fact he was still saying he did it the other way round.

A Trackman in Homers hands would have validated his side of that debate.

P.S . I am not saying Homer was perfect by the way. Amazing , but no ones perfect.

Homer was Perfect.

Angle of Approach and Attack anywhere on the Circle is "0". For an Angle of Approach to exist, you need Two Points. First, the "Impact-Separation" Point, and second, the point at which the Club was designed to produce Straight-Away Flight without manipulation of Hook Face - LP(Low Point).



Trackman says that the location of the Ball where it touches the ground is Low Point (if the per-determined angle of Attack is used by the player). It then says that Angle of Approach is the Inside-out or Outside-in measurement of the Clubhead Path Approach to the Ball.

Really?? You don't see the Flaw? (many Flaws) So if your Trackman reading says that you're 3 degrees Flat, then all you need to change is to Uncock your Left Wrist "more" for Impact.

That's a relief: :confused1 for a moment, I thought Trackman was going to force me to learn to swing the club.

I don't own a Trackman, but I can sure use a Door Stop.

Where does trackman say you're 3 degrees flat? Or suggest swing changes?
Im glad that Homer himself didn't think he was perfect and decided to keep updating his information.

Btw, I don't believe that measuring the angle of attack relative to a ball that sits on the ground is calling the ball lowpoint.

Trackman
 

Trackman is measuring the ballflight via radar technology.

Angle of attack, planelines and all other degrees is calculated. They programmed the thing. It doesn't measure the club or clubheads movement through impact.

A couple of years ago, when I visited the Trackman offices here in Denmark and amongst others spoke to the tech wizard and co-inventer there, Frederik Tuxen, he told me he had no knowledge of TGM. But their data confirmed the ballflight theory of Mr. Kelley.

Back to the instruction video : If you can get the ball to go straight with open or closed planelines either this guy is right, or the machine is getting fooled by the ballflight. For example: Trackman doesn't know anything about hinging and what it'll do to the ballflight. So the program will tell you that the only way you could produce this high a ballflight was with an open planeline, even if you actually had a square planeline but was using angled or even vertical hinging. ???

I guess it's just me but I still can't see straight ballflights from closed or open planelines....