Lag Pressure, can it be sustained?
 

Id say No, not past the point where the club is not accelerating anyways. But the attempt or the intention to sustain it as long as you can is a good one. A very good one assuming you want to hit the ball with an accelerating clubhead as opposed to a decelerating one.


There's a lot of different definitions of lag out there but I'd like to confine this conversation to Homer's Lag, Lag Pressure. Lag PRESSURE as sensed in the Hands, the #3 pp (rotated or not).

Here's my line of thinking please tell me if you think Ive got Homer wrong. It aint hard to do.

Lag Pressure is a product of Acceleration. The rate of acceleration to be precise. To maintain a constant amount of Lag Pressure you need to maintain a constant rate of acceleration. (which is one difficult task) Any slowing in the rate , though you may still be accelerating will see a corresponding drop off in the amount of Lag Pressure in terms of psi. (Lag pressure as defined is not measurable in terms of degrees or inches).

O.K? Stick with me here. Homer in the Law Flail 2-K noted how when the (swingle) clubhead passes the (handle) hands that the clubhead is subject to what he termed "Angular Deceleration". To me implying that Lag Pressure is fully diminished by this point.

Further more I believe the Endless Belt analogy is a model to show the mechanical advantage of the small pulley wheel for a given hand speed only. I dont believe Homer was suggesting there was an advantage to having a constant hand speed!!! In fact a constant hand speed would to my mind suggest a lag pressure of zero. This may be contrary to some well intentioned A.I.s teachings.......no ill will intended. I just think they got Homer slightly wrong. Either they did or I did......

Any thoughts on this guys? Its time to get Homers definitions straight however painful it may be to the memory of some pioneers. There's some guys dressed up in lab coats , calling themselves "scientists" who are looking for some misinterpretations to rebut. Most of them are of their own making but lets clear up our own.

Homer Kelley's 3 Imperatives changed my ideas on teaching and playing. They work for me and my students. The "scientists" are trying to show us that maintaining the angles is not needed. No kidding. That's exactly why Lynn Blake, years ago, told us "the secret to golf is not a position, it's a pressure.". Good luck to those who teach others to throw that away.

Kevin

Why would you say that you can't sustain lag pressure?

You can but only for so long. I edited my post above for clarity. I think you can sustain lag pressure , should attempt to sustain lag pressure as long as is possible. Sustain a constant amount of lag pressure via a steady rate of acceleration. But once the clubheads rate of acceleration declines even though you may be still accelerating Lag Pressure is fading away and once the club passes the hands , settles into angular deceleration Lag Pressure is all gone. Similar to how you dont feel pushed back into an airplanes seat when the plane reaches full speed. No acceleration no lag pressure. You want to accelerate gradually , at a steady rate , not start off at a rate you cant maintain (over acceleration the menace that stalks all lag and drag). It'll feel heavy.

The intention to sustain it past impact , past low point all the way to Both Arms Straight is a good one though.....

Here's something else to consider. Can you have too much lag? If talking Lag Pressure as a product of acceleration : Yes. You dont want to hit a three foot put with 40 yards worth of Lag Pressure do you.

See 2-M-2 POWER REGULATION. Clubhead Lag Pressure Point pressure (6-C) is the Power Regulator. It meters out Power by sensing Clubhead Acceleration Rate and Direction.

Im no scientist though.......could be wrong again.

Don't forget Mass in your Lag Pressure equation.

That makes sense thanks Mike. So for a constant
hand speed the Lag Pressure sensed would be a product of clubhead mass only ( as the contribution from acceleration would be zeroed).

Is that what you mean?

No

I'm saying the equation that LP=A isn't correct. LP=MA is a much better equation. Essentially the greater the force the greater the lag pressure. Let's say you go out in front of your house in the street and accelerate (push) a feather 1mph, then to 2mph and then to 5 mph - not much lag pressure. Now, accelerate a car in neutral by pushing on the fender 1mph, 2mph, 5 mph - probably alot of lag pressure there. Acceleration was the same - the difference was the mass you were accelerating.

One example of that concept in a different perspective somewhere in the book 10-19? (don't have a book anymore), he comments for short shots with little to no hand motion - to add mass via extensor action for better lag pressure.

Therefore, if you had constant handspeed but were increasing angular mass via arm and/or lever assembly extension - you could still have lag pressure. Finally and in addition to that thought - we are talking about acceleration of the clubshaft at the grip end, where the hands attach. We're not talking about ONLY the acceleration of the hands through space, that has the ability to create lag pressure. Some of the wrist motions/muscles can add force and therefore lag pressure on top of whatever hand acceleration one might have or not have.

Thrust anyone? The accelerated mass will cause a force of equal magnitude but opposite direction. [Clubhead Inertia] sensed and directed by the #3 PP.

Bold by Daryl

The Downstroke Acceleration Sequence (Power Package) produces a "constant Rate of Acceleration" of the Primary Lever although the Pivot reaches its maximum speed early in the Downstroke.

Hey did you guys ever have your date night?

Yes. Mike is a great date. He's severely addicted to TGM. :)

I am not sure how nerdy we need to be about this but:

First of all, Daryl, there's a big IF in the quote you used....

Further, there is no 1:1 relationship between lag pressure and club head acceleration. There is a 1:1 relationship between how much you work you put in and acceleration, but work is also depending on how much you move the lag pressure point. Work = Force x Distance. In this case distance will be a function of hands speed. If you push something and it doesn't move, you're not accelerating anything. The more the pressure point moves, the more energy you put into the club, for a given lag pressure.

So for instance, assume that the distance/ hands speed doubles between the middle of the release and impact, while the lag pressure is halved. The acceleration will be the same.

I'm not saying that this is the case, just trying to get the physics right here.

There are some ergonomical advantages early in the down stroke and disadvantages towards impact that makes it practically impossible to apply the same, high effort throughout the down stroke. Also, as speed and radius increases towards impact, the MOI of the whole golf swing will increase. And the golfer is forced to use an increasing percentage of his efforts on simply holding on to the club to keep it in orbit.

A Past Due Book
 

So addicted that he doesn't have the book anymore :( ?

Mike, did the town librarian revoke your library card again?

The clubhead reaches max velo very shortly after the onset of #2 release. Even in the very best swings the clubhead is slowing down at impact. As far as sustaining lag pressure, the best you can do is for PP #3 to continue to receive pivot lag pressure as long as possible. Turn/drive hard to your anatomical limits. No quitting! :naughty:

I'm afraid I don't have much to contribute, just my "feels." I sure am enjoying all of the excellent posts and ideas from everyone else...

Kevin

Step on the Gas and you'll be pressed against the seat, but once you reach a constant speed you'll lose the pressure. The pressure you felt in the beginning will exist as long as you can maintain a "constant rate of acceleration".

With G.O.L.F., (Downstroke Acceleration Sequence), once our pivot accelerates the right shoulder to it's max speed the Hands begin to accelerate.

First of all I do not believe lag pressure is measurable by any means other than the individuals own range of sensations, I don't recall a lag pressure formula in 2k...

As far as homer advising constant hand speed over hand speed that is erratic or maybe not erratic but slightly changing either way the goal is the uncompensated stroke and a constant hand speed surely works toward that goal of efficiency in more than a few ways, I would say he most certainly would say it is an advantage.

I do not understand why you would think constant hand speed means zero lag pressure, if you drag a mop across the floor while maintaining a constant hand speed do you not feel lag pressure?

The identity of lag pressure is that it is a pressure sensed that is all.

Let's remember in all this too that not all use number three pp, homer advised this but it is not mandatory, also remember that there are x variations as is the nature of the human vs. The programmed machine.

No quitting sure, but push to anatomical limits? Homer said it was Not advised to run your machine to it's limit.

I think you have homer wrong on this one, I don't think he is saying that you should be constantly trying to speed up in order to maintain a pressure, the contrary actually, he wants you to maintain a constant hand speed and utilize the surface speed increase effect of the pulley portion and CHOOSE a level of sensation, an amount of lag pressure based on the necessities of the shot at hand.

Yes agreed, I think I was wrong on the zero lag pressure for a constant hand speed thing in a practical sense as was pointed out. The mop is heavy. But Homer is pretty clear about Lag Pressure being related to if not solely produced by the Rate of Acceleration. See 6-C-0 or 2-M-2 #1. Where Homer says........ "The Acceleration Rate (Lag Pressure 7-11)".

All of which to my mind suggesting that the constant hand speed thing of the Endless Belt analogy is not a recommendation that we should literally swing with a constant hand speed. Respectfully. Its just a factor held constant in a model designed to show the advantage of the smaller pulley wheel. Now the thought or intention to try to swing at a constant hand speed if it prevents over acceleration .... "the menace that stalks all lag and drag" may be beneficial. But I suspect you're still accelerating in reality. Maintaining a Constant Rate if thats possible would have a corresponding constant amount of lag pressure but you would have to start down at a speed which will allow you to build (at a Rate) you can maintain. The establishment of a Rate which is not maintainable being the definition of Over Acceleration to my mind.

The Hands at the end of our Arms , levers must accelerate. How could they go from a full stop to a constant speed to a full stop?

Outside of the endless belt does Homer ever mention (let alone recommend) a constant hand speed in the book for full power shots? Less than full power you can have a constant hand speed if you need it but your Lag Pressure will show a corresponding drop off....as it should.

He only mentions it for "less than full power shots..." I can find nowhere that he recommends it for full power in the book, but im trying to understand the advantages of the alternative. lag pressure is varied by changing the acceleration rate he says, but he also says lag pressure is club head feel which may change based on end or top position and where the club head is in relation to the p.p.?. Ok I think I'm sort of understanding what's going on here maybe not, he is suggesting to use a constant hand speed with heavy extensor for less than full power shots, I guess I was taking to mean constant hand speed for full power shots during the downstroke and release not necessarily a constant speed throughout the entire stroke. What would be the advantage of a lag pressure that varies Or a hand speed that varies? I myself am now confused

Lag Pressure may be fleeting but the attempt to sustain it, as Homer defined it , is the attempt to keep accelerating the hands. Thats got to be a good thing in terms of the application of force . Not sure what the equation would be ....somebody around here probably does. I just know that the lag pressure procedure or technique works from putting to driving.....maybe especially in putting and chipping for me anyways.

Why would it not be possible to maintain a constant rate? You can more than attempt to sustain lag pressure or a constant hand speed you can achieve both.

You could. Or increase the Rate ideally for full power. But the problem is the tendency to see the Rate drop. Its like trying to hold water in your hands. Holding your breath while swimming under water. You can only do it but only for so long.

You can not have a constant rate of acceleration (of the hands) and a constant hand speed at the same time. Lag is sensed at the first lagging component. The club lags the Hands (pp #3 and along the palm of the right hand etc on the downswing, but only the pp#3 attaches to the sweetspot plane so use that one mentally). The Arms Lag the Pivot (pp #1) etc etc.

Agreed, you can't have a constant hand speed and a constant acceleration rate of the hands at the same time. It's a balance, a very fine line. Obviously the ball will slow the things down, I don't believe it's right to try and speed up through impact, there are many factors involved in this, lever extension as mentioned cf, mass, sense, over-acceleration, power accumulators, etc. Acceleration rate is not equal to lag pressure just because lag pressure is a product of acceleration rate. You can have club head acceleration with constant hand speed.

The Hands aren't always accelerating. Once they reach their Max Speed (for the shot) they continue at that speed. The Downstroke Acceleration Sequence is outlined below.

Bold and font color choice by Daryl.

Nice colour choice Daryl , beauty. The slowing effect of lever extension during Release plays a part here to Id venture and thereby influences Lag Pressure.

Didnt Homer propose that the Swinger was exempt from this though.....never did understand the reasoning. If so would that imply that the Swinger could maintain Lag Pressure more easily (though it may be falling off) whilst the Hitter, would have to add muscular thrust to offset the slowing effect he is subject to?

So a Hitter must keep continually Thrusting, whereas the Swinger gets a sort of free ride in terms of acceleration and therefor its corresponding Lag Pressure.

The Lag Pressure Technique is indispensable .......and we havent even gotten into how the #3pp attaches to the top of the Sweetspot Plane! How the Lag Pressure Point connects to the sweetspot on the face of the club. Which is the secret to golf to my mind.

Dear Padawan O.B. Left,

Your mission, if you choose to accept it, is to Load the #3 Pressure Point with a predetermined amount of pressure and maintain that pressure through Impact (and beyond if possible).

If you accomplish this feat, then you would have mastered the Downstroke Acceleration Sequence and the Clubhead will not race ahead of the Shaft as in so many thousands of good examples of poor execution offered to explain the mysterious entity controlling and throwing-away the Clubhead just inches before impact.

Problem with most golfers is that they miss the "Hand Acceleration" phase of the sequence. People understand "Shoulder Acceleration" and "Clubhead Acceleration" around the Pulley but "Hand Acceleration" creates fear, even in some of our most seasoned Pro's. One can't cheat the Sequence and get away with it. You can't move from Shoulder Acceleration directly to Clubhead Acceleration and expect to maintain Clubhead Lag. (Actually, I have seen it done. Wow.)

Fortunately for you, I understand Hand Acceleration. And I will easily demonstrate, using High Speed Video, that anyone, using the Downstroke Acceleration Sequence, can maintain Clubhead Lag through the Impact Interval with one hand tied behind their back. In fact, I'll do it with one hand, while standing on one leg, while drinking a Martini, Blind-folded. :laughing9

I look forward to you watching my soon to be released video series on "Right Forearm Participation" in the Golf Swing. :)

Good post daryl

Thank you for this generosity , Jedi Master.

You say "maintain" lag pressure . Can you maintain the same amount of lag pressure? Without breaking your leg?

Are you able to sustain an amount of Lag Pressure past Low Point during what Homer termed the period of angular Deceleration ? I dont think so surely its falling off, no? The attempt to do so is a good one though, no doubt about it and I do love the Downstroke Sequence.

Hey I just hope I got some guys thinking in terms of Lag as Pressure. Lag Pressure is so important and I got sick of reading other forums where they were talking about inches of Lag or degrees of Lag or Lag as #2 angle and how its all so wrong. Which is often true using their definition of lag anyways. But thats not the lag Homer was talking about ....not at all. Lag and Acceleration are inextricably linked. Its not a golf thing only or a Homer invention it just is......take the baseball fielder who turns and whips a throw to the cut off man. What was his method of regulating the force required? Id say lag pressure. What if he suddenly changed his mind and threw to home plate? What mechanism regulated his application of force there? Id say Lag Pressure. And the regulation of the direction of his thrust? Id say Lag Pressure.


Cant wait to see your video D. Good luck with it. Hey did you really have dinner with ........ I think the guys participation here is confined to searching mentions of his own name so Im not going to say Mike O.'s name. OK? Its an old canadian trick.

I'm with you on this one O.B. The Pressure can be maintained till the end of the pulley (Both Arms Straight).

In my video, Plane Line Tracing and Downstroke Acceleration Sequence and Right Forearm Angle of Approach are topics in the same chapter.

If you press your Right Elbow against your Side during the Downstroke, you'll avoid the Hand Acceleration Stage of the sequence. The Right Shoulder reaches its Max Speed very quickly then travels at a constant speed. Because the Hands haven't reached the Pulley for Clubhead Acceleration, Clubhead Lag Loss occurs. You can skip step one (use a Circle Path Delivery) and you can skip step three (Zero out #2 and 3) but you can't skip step Two.

Mike and I had dinner. We talked for about three hours mostly about HK but very little about TGM. The Capitol Grille in Chicago is probably not the place to demonstrate Horizontal Hinging. Maybe we should have met at a "Cracker Barrel". :) He's a really good guy. He's very pleasant and a good conversationalist. Not at all like the "Mikey" we know. :laughing9

Yah Ive talked to him a couple of times, he's a good man underneath that calculated internet persona. Sent me some very interesting stuff he's working on. Displaying Horizontal in a restaurant would be tuff ....specially if you fellas had your high heals on for the occasion. Wish I could hear the conversation , were you wearing a wire? (Microphone not bra that is.) High oh!

Seriously now .....Whens your video coming out, Daryl? Like your thoughts there. No hanky panky under the arm then, Independent Arm and Pivot Motion. Sing it Sista.

ob

Hey D something Ive been wondering about. "Lag Pressure has no Release Point" right in terms of our intentions. Im thinking were talking #3pp here only. Doesnt PIvot Lag have a Release? Im thinking it must for the much maligned Blast Off. Blast off is about to make a big comeback eh D?

[quote=Daryl;87082] In fact, I'll do it with one hand, while standing on one leg, while drinking a Martini, Blind-folded. :laughing9
QUOTE]

Ah, you did that already - remember after dinner and the police officer pulled you over in downtown Chicago, driving me back to the Hotel. I told you to put the Martini down but no you had to show the officer what you could do - all on video tape of course.

Daryl had some really insightful ideas into the Golfing Machine, that showed me he's really put a lot of thought and study into the ideas in the book. I'd be very interested in his video. Hope he's able to produce it soon. I did have one idea after we met regarding the video. Instead of making a full production video, I thought - much like creating a rough draft for a book and getting feedback from an editor, I'd suggest making a crude rough video and then get observations and feedback from a few people - before making a final production video. Anyway, just an idea. Thanks for taking the time to meet me Daryl and providing dinner - next one's on me whenever our paths should cross again.

Hi Mike

It's a lot of work and more than I ever imagined. But, a little more than a year later, I've documented the topics and reference numbers concerning the Right Forearm. The information is seemingly organizing itself into three lessons. I'm going with the flow. The outline:

Lesson 1: Hinging, Swivels
Lesson 2: Plane Line Tracing, Downstroke Acceleration Sequence, Right Forearm Angle of Approach
Lesson 3: Geometry of the Circle, Ball Position, Plane Angles.

Each is 30-60 minutes. That's not a problem for a five day seminar but its a killer problem for a "five minute Video".

Hey D.

Have you considered the written word mixed with diagrams and links to video, instead of full on video? A whatcha ma call it? E book or whatever?

Imagine if Homer had the technology to do that back in his day. Imagine the videos ... his gizmos, models etc. Imagine more diagrams of the Geometry of the Circle. That would make TGM less obtuse in a hurry.

When you see the Geometry much of the book comes together, makes sense. Arc of Approach , Angle of Attack, Plane Angle etc all have different visual perspectives! Got to see the visual to follow along.