left Hand Karate Chop
 

With my few remaining brain cells, I have hopefully figured out this most elusive of phrases, the left hand karate chop. As a swinger, one keeps the left palm face down to the inclined plane, and allows the pivot to swing the left arm in a left hand karate chop motion downplane until the release point, where the left wrist uncocks and the left hand no longer faces down on the inclined plane, but swivels through the impact zone, sequentially.

The problem I had with the above was I was aiming the uncocking left wrist at the ball or aiming point, which I thought one was supposed to do. That meant I was probably tracing the plane line with my left arm.

I think I understand now. One performs the left hand karate chop at the ball, but one aims PP#3 , not the left wrist or left hand . Significant difference since PP#3 and the left wrist are separated by about 5-6 inches. That way, one is tracing the plane line with the right forearm and PP#3 while at the same time perfroming the left hand karate chop motion with the left arm, wrist and hand.

Haven't tried this yet, but I hope this may finally clear up the confusion my body and brain have had with simultaneous and sequential release. I have been unintentionally performing a simultaneous release while swinging. Swinging with one long swivel from the top, where my left hand does not stay palm down to the plane. It immediately rolls at startdown.Not good for swinging.

To sum up, I hope this is correct. Swingers left hand karate chop PP#3 towards the aiming point or inside corner of the ball.

Sounds like you got it!

Trust
 

You got it.

Number 3 aims only. No thrust for swingers and the left hand will uncock in it's karate chop motion. This is the period of clubhead acceleration. The hands stay at the same basic speed but the overtaking of the clubhead is through the downplane uncocking of the left wrist. The roll into impact is automagic. :) You don't have to force the roll (horizontal hinge) into and through impact. Just trust it.

Bagger

Driving The Hands
 

DDL,

When Swinging, it helps to think of the Hands -- both the Karate-Chopping Left and the Lag Pressure-Sensing Right -- as the 'point' of the Left Arm Flying Wedge (the Left Arm and Club). Then, drive them directly toward the Ball (or alternative Aiming Point). When Hitting, think of the Hands as the 'point' of the Right Forearm Flying Wedge, and do the same.

Re: Driving The Hands
 

Is this the same as imagining PP#3 as an extension of the left arm flying wedge, thus I am attempting to smash the ball/aiming point/plane line with PP#3 via a left arm flying wedge karate chop motion?

Aiming And Thrust
 

When Swinging, Centrifugal Force is doing the actual 'Smashing.' The #3 Pressure Point is only guiding -- aiming -- this Thrust. When Hitting, Right Elbow Muscle Power against the #3 Pressure Point supplies both Aiming and Thrust.

Re: Driving The Hands
 

=D>

Thank you, this thread is quite helpful to me.

Wouldn't it be easier to visualize a right arm/wrist karate chop? That way the right arm is used for clubhead control and the left hand for clubface control. Clear and distinctly different roles. Another aspect of the left hand karate chop that confused me was that it placed clubhead control onto the wrong arm. Think about the bent back right wrist doing a karate chop motion with the right palm face up to the inclined plane.

Karate Chops And Barrel Rolls
 

The Swinger Loads the Left Wrist and Triggers centrifugually the Sequenced Release of the Left Wrist and Hand. Hence the 'Left Hand Karate Chop' (Palm down to the Plane) followed by the Left Hand Swivel.

The Hitter Loads the Right Elbow and Triggers muscularly the Simultaneous Release of the Left Wrist and Hand. Hence, there is no Left Hand Karate Chop Motion nor any Left Hand Swivel. Instead, driven by the straightening Right Arm, the Left Wrist Uncocks as the Left Hand Rolls. In this manner, the Left Palm immediately begins its return from its On Plane alignment at the Top to its Vertical alignment at Impact.

Can a swinger still set up at impact fix and use the right forearm pickup procedure for the takeaway?

The Swinger's Right Forearm Takeaway
 

The Swinger should definitely use the Right Forearm Takeaway, whether from Fix or preferably, Adjusted Address.

Re: The Swinger's Right Forearm Takeaway
 

I second that motion!!!! Really, no pun intended!!!


DG

I use a swinging procedure with right forearm pickup for the takeaway. You can setup at impact fix or classic address position(left wrist bent, right wrist straight).

For the longer clubs, I use classic address postion and impact fix postion for the shorter clubs. I think it is easier to keep the club on-plane for the takeaway with the classic address postion. If I am off-base with what I just wrote, I am sure Yoda will correct this information.

Re: The Swinger's Right Forearm Takeaway
 

Well maybe you can clear the fog then Yoda
I was under the impression that one of the key differences between hiting and swinging was that on the takeaway for swingers there is an early turn of the forearms so that at the top, the pp#3 is under the shaft instead of behind it as in hitting. How does the right forearm differ in mtion then between swingers, hitter?

Do you plan to post any video of the right forearm pickup and establishing impact fix? This would be of so much value to us seeking the true light of the force!

I may be wrong, but....

The location of #3pp for a swinger with the feel of it being under the shaft is due to the position of the hands at the top of a longer backswing and the turn of the hands. All hand and wrist actions are a loading procedure. Swingers using 10-18-A Standard, turn and cock on the backstroke and roll and uncock on the downstroke. This loading procedure will give the feel of #3pp relocating but it is always behind the shaft and will be there-behind- at impact.

The right forearm take away motion should be the same for both strokes. The shorter shoulder level Hitter's top position using 10-18-C keeps #3pp aligned and the Swinger's longer top position using 10-18-A requires an unroll and swivel into a impact. The take away motion is the same, the loading procedure of the hands are different.

Sounds logical but I thought with hitting one uses angled hinging so it is a no roll feel. If one turns and cocks the left hand/wrist on the takeaway, then the right forearm pickup move can't be the same, if one is n't doing this in hitting.
I am just wondering how do incorporate this swivel etc.

I ask because I knowI was definitely a swinger, and while I am trying hitting out, and liing it, I suspect for the long clubs swinging might produce more distance for me. I am 5'8 155 so my muscular thrust is perhaps not as great as what CF can generate. (I get about 103-107 mph swingspeed with my usual swing, not sure with hitting)

Left Hand Karate Chop
 

I played a practice round at my course today and wanted to try a few things I've experimented with on the range.

Today it was a few things to solidify my pattern but the surprise motion was to take the left hand karate chop as deep into the downswing as possible without worrying about left wrist roll. Down, down, as low as she would go. A no release feel. No left wrist manipulation for horizontal hinging.

My trust level was low. I used old ratty balls just in case the results would be as predicted.

Surprisingly enough I didn't push a single shot right. If anything, the horizontal hinge motion felt like a quick rollover snap. It was a very reliable snap roll through impact with a nice divot in front of the ball.

This worked very well from Driver to Lob Wedge. My miss was a pull and it was caused by not tracing a straight planeline past impact. I also noticed a slight distance loss until I realized I wasn't employing enough extensor action. Then it was boom town.

Very cool experiencing a later release but to use it, you have to trust it.

Next time I'm taking some ProV1's out of the box.

thats so cool,

On what plane are you travelling on?

Turned Shoulder Plane

I use a flat backstroke shoulder turn to get there. Sets the hands and right shoulder on the TSP. Then its easy to take the power package downplane.

B.L.,
Was the "CHOP" down the "turned shoulder plane" (AS YOU PRECIEVE IT) @ the target line or was it at something else? Was the hands "CHOP", straight line on plane (AS VIEWED FACE ON) or arcing (CIRCULAR) on plane?
Jay

Seems as If
 

Jay,

I've shot video of my swing for years and the vast majority of the time, I'm dead on the TSP without any downstroke shifts. I haven't done any video lately because most of my practice is out on the course, but the procedure I use is:

From the end, the right palm stays flat up against the plane, left hand down.
I use the aiming point procedure and attempt to direct lag pressure in a straight line delivery path to the aiming point. The actual "point" is on the low point plane line and it's location depends on the club. For instance with wedges my aiming point is about 3 to 4 inches in front (target line) of the outer circumference of the ball. That's where I want to take the chop without feeling a need to manually roll #3.

I've started taking the left hand (my focus), flat against the plane much deeper recently and I like the results. It still surprises me that I can attempt to keep palms against the plane very deep into the swing and get an automatic "snap" (A very descriptive term for an automatic and fast left wrist roll) that sends the ball on a laser trajectory. I know all of the mechanics behind this, but it happens so fast that there isn't anything I can do but aim and hold on.

I overheard Ted Fort one day during a lesson. He said "as long as the hands are rolling and the pivot keeps moving through impact, it's very difficult to bend the left wrist". In this case, the hands roll so quickly there doesn't "seem to be" any way for the left wrist to break down and I get a nice horizontal hinge motion and feel.

From my perspective, once the hands are on their way to the aiming point, the only thing left is to continue tracing the baseline of the plane into follow-through and complete the finish.

I'm not too excited about shooting a video because as history has shown, what seems as if, usually isn't. It wouldn't surprise me at all to see a circle delivery path and sweep release. :) I have some extra time this week, so I'll shoot a video :-& and let you know what I see.

Housecleaning
 

Noticed we had two threads with the same topic. I shoulda checked to see if there was another Kung Fu thread before I opened another one up.

Merged them together.

Bagger, i found this point confusing. How do you aim at something underneath the ground?

Seeing Lines
 

I think of two lines on the surface of the ground. The primary line is the target line or base of the plane line. We all visualize this line from putt to drive.

The second line is the low point line and it's approximately half an inch outside of the target line.

The 4 sides of a plane extend to infinity in all directions. When we first make contact with the ball, we are contacting it "up plane" at separation the clubhead has moved "down plane" towards low point, below the ground. This is why we emphasis an inside/out impact.

If the ground were water and the plane was a flat sheet of metal, the base of the plane is where it intersects the surface of the water. If there was a horizontal line drawn on the plane half an inch below the water, you would see it just outside the surface line.

To see the low point plane line you need a visual reference on the surface of the ground. That reference line is within an inch of the plane baseline and just outside of it.

If you have the book, Homer made some drawings depicting these plane lines.
Hope that helps.

Bagger thanks for the nice explanation of plane. I understand the plane it's the visual reference of the low point i'm having trouble grasping.

When i use aiming point i pick a point on the baseline of the plane and try to hit down and out through that. What i don't get is lowpoint is outside the baseline but as you say also further down. So surely any point outside the baseline that you pick on the ground isn't on plane?

Hope i'm making sense,

Danny

The key thing to remember is that, unless impact is at low point, the ground isn't where the base of the plane is. The base of the plane is under the ground; an on-plane downswing is down, out, and forward, until lowpoint. Since the plane is tilted, as it's going down, it's also going out. After it passes through the ground, it's still going out. So the actual base of the plane will be outside the target line in most cases.

Bigwill,

i think i used the word baseline when it wasn't appropriate. What i really meant is the line where the plane intersects the ground (whatever its called :eyes: ).

Anyway i really do understand this plane mallarcky... honest :confused1 ...that low point is outside the target line etc... But what i don't understand is; as lowpoint is further out but also down. With an iron it will be lower than the ground. As the ground is not transparent you can't see it, so how do you pick a spot on the low point to aim at?

Danny,

Do a search on aiming point. It can only be found by experiment because each player uses a different plane angle, hand speed, pulley size, release type, etc and it is also different for each club.
In general, shorter clubs are further forward of the ball and longer clubs nearer. If you have the book, reference 2-C-1 and 6-E-2.

Bagger thanks for your valiant attempts to help me understand. I read all the posts, i've seen the pics in the book. But i still can't understand how you can aim your hands to a point on the low point plane line, when it's underground and you can't see it.

Perhaps i'm just stupid.... :(

Oh well, cheers for your help.

The internet has never been the best place for communications and I'm certainly not the best at communicating in general, so lets keep going.

You don't have to treat the low point plane line as something under the ground from a visual standpoint. The equivalent line is on the surface of the ground. Its a two dimensional line right next to the target line, but just outside of it. Since your eyes are not in the plane itself but well above it, you can visually treat the low point plane line as a separate line.
The only time the clubhead is concerned with the low point line is at low point. (:doh: what a deep thought. Told you I wasn't a good communicator) You will contact the ball on the target line but the clubhead will continue to the low point line, touch it for an instant and then move back up plane.

Back to topic -

From the top of your swing, mentally draw a straight line from your right index finger to a point on the ground in front of and just outside the center of the ball. Take your karate chop/lag pressure all the way down the line to that spot with quiet hands. The point you select to aim at really depends on the club selection and your hand speed. So experiment with it and move the point backwards or forwards until you locate what is right for you.

It might help if, on the practise tee, a tee peg is put into the ground at this spot as a visual aid.

If the tee peg is obliterated by the swing, then the "aiming point" has been hit.

Cool tip Burner i think i'll try that.

Thanks for all your help Bagger. I think it's one of those things that is easy to understand if explained in person but can be a nightmare on the internet.

Just one quick check. So the visual line you aim at is on the ground. It may or may not be the low point plane line, in fact in most cases (with irons) it won't, it will be further up plane. Is this correct?

Cheers Danny

lagging the hosel
 

Bagger,

I too am trying to swing and have not had much success with the karate chop motion- don't trust it yet. I always want to uncock and roll right from the top. Are you not lagging the hosel when you do the karate chop motion? Just wondering how this works. Have you hit any shanks while practicing?

Thanks for the help!

Even though the hosel and clubface sweet spot are inline that doesn't mean you are lagging the hosel. You are always lagging the sweetspot.

The way this works is two-fold:

As the clubshaft nears its in-line condition with the left arm, the sweetspot of the clubface will automatically rotate much like a clubhead attached to a string.

Secondarily, the straightening of the right elbow will assist in rotating the clubface into impact. It helps provide the paddlewheel motion of the flat left wrist. You can take a "standard" grip and see this for yourself. From a release position, simply straighten the right arm and notice how the clubface closes. For a snap release, you will notice that the right arm straightens much faster during release.

You absolutely have to trust this to automatically happen without manipulation. Take the pressure points in your hands down a direct line to an aiming point in front of the ball. Don't quit on it. Keep it going and keep your hands relaxed throughout.

Start by slowing your hands down and swinging about 50-75% of your current effort.

This is an automatic procedure. There is a non-automatic as well.

Thank you for the help. That makes sense and I am working on making the move automatic- just do not trust it yet!