Got Rhythm?
 

That was cool.

MacDonald drill edutainment.

Astair demonstrating hitting on the hands plane:laughing9

The motion may look a bit flippy but the rhythm seems to be consistent with hands plane and a very short back stroke. In his last stroke he does a planeshift UP to a low version of the elbow plane and really turns his shoulders through the shot to a full finish. Nice!

I bet Fred could play.

Lance Armed & Strong
 

Welcome back Bagger!

Ahh... the MacDonald Drills set to music. Who would have thought?

Analyze This?
 

This is a marvelous find Bagger thanks.

See the way he brushes the ground in two directions.......pure Mehlhourn /MacDonald/Blake motion training there. I wonder if Fred ever had a lesson with Wild Bill, or MacDonald? Or maybe Yoda when he was only about 300 years old. Hmmm......I thinking there was a grass whip in Fred's past.

I always wondered if the Mehlhourn drill woulda fixed Charles Barkley's problem. They even had all the balls set up for it too ....but got him to pause between swings, too bad. We'll never know. Might not have been fixable. He woulda lost some serious weight in the process, no need to go for cardio workouts afterwards. I quit the gym and am doing this myself this winter.

Here's Fred Astaire's swing broken down, not bad given that he'd been dancing around for a while before he did this. Some nice components there. Kind of gets his head in front of his hips like Walter Hagen, but it flows along just like you'd expect from him. So proper motion can create the positions we so fondly observe?????? Better than just copping the positions? How do you learn the proper Motion?

I wonder if Yoda would care to analyze this? Or anyone else? We can skip the pre shot routine it being rather lengthy.

I see a little kick in of the right knee with a hovered club head..... Adjusted , mid body hands, nice cleared right hip, Lagging Takeaway .......I dunno.

Following the Steps of a Master
 

There is a lot of things I like about this video, but what got me was not only the similarity to MacDonald drills, but also how well balanced he is; particularly on the swing sequence that OB captured (Thanks OB). I love how he gets to his left side even with a relatively wide stance, and dare I say it, a stationary head.

I was tempted to post this in the drills section. If anyone can master those steps...:salut:

Rhythm is essential, imperative in my opinion.
I was hitting balls last week, one of those days when I felt "rhythm" and hit 100 balls really well no sweat and did not feel tired at all,actually felt had more energy afterwards.

Then few days ago, after hitting 10 balls, I felt NO Rhythm, I keep hitting balls thinking it would come. I tried to swing faster(faster tempo) or slower(slower tempo) but still no rhythm. It was real effort. The distance on my shots, especially the woods was a lot shorter despite trying to hit harder. My alignment and mechanic thoughts did not change from last week.
I keep hitting more balls... with different mechanical swing thoughts but....there was no change. After 100 balls I was physically and mentally tired.

Then after resting for a day, it became clear to me.....whatever mechanical pattern(swinging or hitting)and it's subset pattern you decide, make sure the rhythmic pattern matches the mechanical pattern. It's not simply one rpm, it's how the rpm's of each part of the machine work together,

I Plead the 4th
 

Homer Kelley almost name Rhythm as a 4th Imperative, but decided that it was indeed possible to play golf without proper Rhythm, albeit with great difficulty.

The Left Arm Flying Wedge, the Flat Left Wrist and Left Arm all move around the Left Shoulder Hinge Pin together at the same RPM’s. You can make it your personal 4th.

At the top, the club is lagging behind the left arm with about a quarter rotation (90 degrees) and in the finish it is leading with 90 degrees. In the definitions. So the shaft moves at a higher RPM than the arm and there is a gradual overtaking here as well.

In the definitions he says .... "the same basic RPM" when he talks about golf rhythm. But in the mechanical definition the term "basic" is left out. The wort "basic" is hardly a coincidence here. The definition also states "overtaking all other components at an even, steady, rate."

I don't think this definition is very good, becaus what really happens is different from what the definition says.

The overtaking rate in the stroke isn't. If you look at the kinetic link speed profiles of hips, shoulders, hand and clubhead, where the predecessor peaks and then slows down as the successor takes over, this is clear. (Now where are those nice illustrations when you need them )

To me, rhythm is to manage this sequenced overtaking and time it so that lead-lag relations in the kinetic link, including clubhead lagpressure is sustained - and the flat left wrist is intact until low point (deep breath).

Looks good but where is the ball going !?? Whats his handicap. I think he is just a show off.

http://www.golfdigest.com/magazine/2...famous-golfers

http://media.worldgolf.com/wg_blog_m...10-08-06-1.mp3

Drew,
What is the left shoulder hinge pin?

If that includes the scapula, ribs and humerus joint as one hinge I would agree.
You mention the primary assembly unit working at one RPM.But it has to match with the PIVOT RPM. There is no use swinging the arms if it's not in synch with the body.
The "connection" in a physical sense to the PIVOT is through the left scapula and ribcage.


Bernt,
Agree that clubhead is moving at a different rate than than shoulder, different from the wrist and different from the pivot.
RPM is speed and a measurement of tempo not rhythm. Rhythm as you correctly describe is the pattern each part of the machine's rpm's blending together.

dlam,

it's how the rpm's of each part of the machine work together

I thought that was very well said.

dlam,

I thought said it very well here:

it's how the rpm's of each part of the machine work together

Here's the abridged version of the MacDonald drill type action.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YLD70YrjZD4

This would make a nice clip to show during a presentation of some sort or other. Motion maybe.

Drew do you know the origins of this drill? Vardon , Mehlhorn, MacDonald ......it sure works who ever it was.

I wonder if Fred would have been forced to do his tap dancing with soft spikes today :eh:

We Got Rhythm
 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gjmpo...ayer_embedded#!

Drilling for old
 

Ginger Rogers?

Although Vardon came before Mehlhorn (who I got to work with briefly) and Macdonald, both Mehlhorn and Macdonald incorporated them effectively into their teching. the origin is lost in the mist of time.

Lets Go Around This Together
 

Not each part, but specifically the Lever Assemblies (Left Arm and clubshaft) regardless of Clubhead Extension Velocity (uncocking of the left Wrist).

Lynn's video is very good at describing the rhythm and the hinge action in chipping. I like the analogy of the merry-go-round. In the chipping the slowest RPM would be the left shoulder and fast RPM would be the clubhead.
I believe the full swing is a different animal.
The full swing requires a good pivot, the torso has the slowest RPM, slower than the left shoulder, and thus should be the regulator of the total speed(tempo) of the swing. Just like the drummer of a band dictates the speed of play the other band members.
I believe the initiation of the swing, would be better of at the core perhaps the pelvis turn, maybe the shoulder blades and rotation of shoulders , or the head turn. This would keep the swing motion in rhythm.

Circle the Wagons
 

Don't confuse RPM with MPH. RPM (Revolutions per Minute) deals with the act of revolving (orbit) and the time it takes to complete this action. MPH (miles per hour) is pace. The Clubhead and Left Shoulder can move at the same RPM's, but the Clubhead has more MPH's. The Hips move through Impact at approximately two MPH, the Shoulders five MPH, the Hands 15 MPH and the Clubhead 100 MPH, but all can move at the same RPM's.

Thanks for that Drew.

Id like to hear about your experiences with Wild Bill some day.

Regards
ob

Homer's got Rhythm
 

Also don't confuse golfing machine rhythm with the conventional pop instruction definition which is how well each lagging component is synchronized with the leading component and how well coordinated the overall swing appears.

The golfing machine definition is how Yoda and Drew have described it. You'll also find that each hinge action and its associated clubhead travel has its own rhythm "around" the left shoulder hinge pin through impact. That's why Lynn focused in on hinge action in the video. He is demonstrating golfing machine rhythm from start to finish.

Granted, well synchronized lag and coordination is important, but its not how Homer defined rhythm.

Did I intentionally title this thread to highlight the differences?

Mayba :confused1 Actually I just liked the happy dance. Fred Astaire was an amazing athlete. Gifted in conventional rhythm and golfing machine rhythm IMHO.

Technical reasoning:
If they move at the same RPM and the clubshaft is twice as long as the left arm, the clubhead speed would be 3 times as fast as the hands speed - all due to increased swing radius. With a hand speed of 15 MPH that gives you a club head speed of 45 MPH. A shaft that is twice as long as your arm is probably an illegal driver so the 45 MPH figure can safely be regarded as a theoretical maximum.Now, if the club head speed really is 100 MPH, you have at least 55 MPH that aren't yet accounted for. You need higher RPM to explain it.

A more golf like explanation:
You don't have to be a mechanical engineer to get this. Remember that between 9 and 3 (as in a 9-3 drill), the left arm goes from parallel to parallel (to the plane line) while the club shaft goes from vertical to vertical. Parallel to parallel means that the left arm rotates 180 degrees. Vertical to vertical means that the club shaft rotates 360 degrees. So in average for the 9-3 motion, the shaft has twice as high RPM as the left arm from 9-3. If you account for a late release here, we are certainly talking about a much higher RPM difference through impact.

Only if you zero accumulator #2 and #3 (or freeze them) will you get the same RPM for arm and club shaft. I guess some does that with the putter but that would be the only shot where this is possible.

Homer defined rhythm as ...holding both lever assemblies to the same basic RPM. While he defines mechanical rhythm as holding all components ... to the same RPM

My guess is that Homer used the word basic his definition because there's a bit more to it than the mechanical definition. Perhaps in an effort to simplify the explanation. Or dumbing it down if you like. But you guys seem to have dismissed the difference Homer made here.

Between 9 and 3 (as in a 9-3 drill), the Left Arm goes from parallel to parallel (to the plane line) while the Clubshaft goes from vertical to vertical. Parallel to parallel means that the Left Wrist traveled "X" distance. Vertical to vertical means that the Clubhead traveled a greater distance. So for the 9-3 interval, the Clubhead travels farther than the left wrist.

But because the Flat Left Wrist and Clubface remained aligned (Left Arm Wedge) during the 9-3 interval, they have the same Rhythm - RPM.

Thanks Drew,
Good clarification.

I also wondered what people mean when describing rhythm.
Watching a player like E. Els, everyone agrees has good rhythm, but hard to describe what that is.

Compare to player like K. Perry. Does he have good rhythm? He can play. He appears to take the club back with his hands and arms only then pauses at the top then looks like any other player in RPM in the forward swing.

While E.Els, has a smooth backswing to forward swing, his RPM appears constant throughout like a merry-go-round.
So maybe that's why is so elusive to describe "good" rhythm
There is so many ways to perform startup/takeaway
The "rhythm" of the golf swing doesn't always have to the start at address.

I have a too strong academic and work background in science to take what you say here seriously.

The clubhead travels at a much higher RPM through impact than the hands. I don't know any way of explaining that any further than I've already done. I am just decribing something that any one who studies film footage of golf strokes can see with their own eyes. I don't understand how anyone can dispute a fact that is so in your face.

This overtaking is the main reason that good rhythm doesn't come by itself. The Flat Left Wrist helps you to sense and control the overtaking of the club. Lag pressure - linear force - helps you to keep the left wrist flat until low point.

______________________


Here's for those of you who sees the difference between the same RPM and the same basic RPM:

The physics of this overtaking is such that the hands will be slowed down during the overtaking and the flat left wrist will break down prior to impact - unless the golfer does something to prevent it.

Here's a double pendulum model you can play with: http://www.maths.tcd.ie/~plynch/Swin...ependulum.html

Notice how the "flat left wrist" (the first mass) stalls and collapses shortly after the "club" (the second mass) is released.

Hit restart a few times and watch the "stroke". Then change parameters. Increase the first mass significantly and see what happens.

Of course in the golf stroke we have to substitute this mass increase with lag pressure regulation (linear force).

Whoa. I'm not questioning your academic or work success. But try to see this from my point of view.

When the Left arm is parallel to the ground during the Downstroke, the Flat Left Wrist is laying against the Plane as does the Clubface. They are Aligned against the Plane.

After Impact, when the Left Arm is Parallel to the Ground, the Left Wrist is again, positioned against the Plane, and so is the Clubface.

The Alignment of the Clubface and Left Wrist, when the Left Wrist is Flat, creates the Left Arm Flying Wedge. If the Left Wrist Rotates, then the Clubface rotates. Simultaneously, keeping the Left Arm Wedge Intact. This is "Rhythm" (per TGM). And this can occur whether the Club is Uncocking or re-cocking. So, regardless of the very different clubhead and Hand Speed, they can rotate together, simultaneously, synchronized by the Flat Left Wrist.

Radial Alignment = Rhythm.

That has been my general approach towards TGM since I started reading the book. I try to understand the book on it's own premises first. Most of the time it makes sense. I removed a part below that is hard to disagree withI just resized part of your response. The part that states that the Left Wrist and the Clubface rotates together is a given. It can't be otherwise unless you regrip the club during the downs stroke. The other part that you bring up is the Flat Left Wrist. The implications of what you're saying here is that that rhythm and Flat Left Wrist are the same. The Left Wrist condition is a good monitor and indicator of the state of the rhythm. And it is also an important alignment for maintaining rhythm. But it is not the same as rhythm.

The golf club is subject to two types of rotation in the stroke. Rotation around the lontitudinal sweet spot axis and (forearm rotation) and the rotary motion of the whole club on the inclined plane. THe rotary motion of the whole club have two components; The right arm swing and the club swing around the right hand.

When you've got good rhythm, there aren't any conflicts between the two (three) types of rotation. The finish swivel is prepared so that the Left Wrist doesn't bend until low point. And the application of lag pressure is high enough to resist the left wrist from breaking down during the release. There is a lot more than a flat left wrist that goes into this. And RPM difference between clubhead and hands is what creates the CF throwout, stalls the hands and makes it a true challenge to have good rhythm.

The components of the Primary Lever should rotate around the Hinge together.

Of course. So what? You can still flip. Or throw away lag to early. Or - theoretically - not release at all.

No you can't when the Rotation is guided by the Right Elbow. If you don't allow the Right Elbow to guide the Rotation, then all of the problems you mention will almost always occur.

This is territory that my words cannot explain. A video from me, or TGM Teacher demonstration. The Paddlewheel motion of the right forearm rotating about an Axis perpendicular to one of the Basic Planes. So, the Left Wrist can "Roll" however and whenever you want: but their are "Rules" to follow.

Rule #1: The Roll begins at the Pulley.
Rule #2: The larger the Pulley, the Slower the Roll.

Zone 3- hands/wrist hinge motion only can be expressed in RPM
Zone 2- arm/shoulder motion in an arc motion can be expressed in RPM
Zone 1- body/pivot moves in a rotatory fashion can be expressed in RPM.
Trevino had an interesting illustration in his book expressing these zones as gears, the torso being the bigger slower gear and the hands being the faster smaller gear and how they have to rotate together like a crankshaft.

Now a hands controlled start up will work but takes "strong" hands to drive the pivot.
A pivot controlled takeaway will also work but the hands must be passive enough to allow the slower pivot to initiate the takeaway.

IMO that's what I see when I look at E.Els vs K.Perry start up at address.
There are 3 zones of moving parts in different orbits with 3 different RPMs. Who is the conductor of this orchastra?
Hint there is no wrong answer.

To get back on topic:

Now you're throwing in a number of components and efforts required to maintain rhythm. These efforts would be far less critical if the clubhead and the hands had the same RPM.

There are three Rhythms that relate to the three Hinges. Each procedure is unique. The only similarity is that the Flat Left Wrist and Clubface rotate simultaneously around the Hinge. Each Hinge Action - Rhythm - rotates the Clubface about a different Plane. Vertical, Horizontal and Angled. Certainly you can accomplish that with the Left Wrist alone. But Swingers and Hitters have "Inherent" Hinge Action because of the way the Right Forearm participates, which is caused in part by Wrist Action. Parts within Parts. Motions within Motions.

I think it's clear to me that RPM is rhythm and the MPH is speed.
The pivot is the only true rotation part of the machine.
The arc and the hinge mechanism travel more or less in a straight line. The pivot regulates the rhythm because it's the true center and of it's rotatory nature.
I suppose one can listen/play a musical piece with same rhythm but different tempo.But it can not longer be a musical piece if there is tempo without rhythm.
No rhythm. No golf swing?

Each hinge action is unique. There are many ways to maintain a flat left wrist through impact. Each procedure will make a difference as to how CF will impose forces on your hands that can potentially ruin your rhythm. That's only in the down stroke. The upstroke has it's challenges to. It is no coincidence that newbeginners vary between no release and a flip. It is because they haven't learned to monitor and enforce the rhythm. ENFORCE.

I don't see anything wrong in what you state here, Daryl. And besides, you know parts of this much better than I do. I am not sure if you understand them better than me whenever I take a close look, but you certainly know them better.

But I think you're missing the mark. You insist that rhythm means similar RPM for club and arm. If that were a fact, maintaining rhythm would simply be a matter of correct sequencing in the pivot. And then you proceed by explaining a number of alignments that is needed to maintain rhythm. None of them would be critical if your definition of rhythm was correct.

If the clubhead and the hands had the same RPM the need to monitor the hands would be reduced significantly. You might as well monitor the clubhead then. The left elbow and the left hand travels on the same RPM. That's the reason there's no need to monitor the left elbow.

The golf stroke would be a lot simpler than it is if the club and the arms had the same RPM throughout. It would be like the relationship between your left elbow and your left hand. But the golf stroke would be a lot shorter too, and golf would be a lot less exiting if it were that simple. But it isn't so why not set the record straight? Why not put some content into Homer's differentiation between same RPM and same basic RPM?

Daryl and Bernt
Why dont both of you post yourself dancing like Fred Astaire and we will decide who's got the best rhythm.:happy3:

People and Places
 

LAS VEGAS, NV, May 2, 2007 . . .

Daryl and wife Bobbie dressed for dinner at the Belagio http://www.bellagio.com/. . .

Trust me . . .

The crowd parts.

Somewhere in there . . .

I wiggled through!

:mrgreen: