Hogan Right Shoulder Motion Elbow Plane Hitter
 

I see Launching Pad here . . . . I gotta go on a patented 2 hour lunch break . . . but I'll have more to say about this . . . I see the right shoulder motion supporting the motion of the primary lever and being a backstop for #1? Tip of Right Shoulder to pocket above left elbow joint . . . this is something that Eddie Cox has told me about numerous times . . . just now starting to see it . . . . good stuff . . . Even though the right shoulder is working down and out . . . it is still working ON TOP of the left arm Primary Lever . . . NOT UNDER NEATH IT . . . still tilting the tea cup but not shifting the plane . . . ultimate efficiency.

Amazing how the man was able to do it without a trackman!

Lol!
 

Makes you wonder about the Pyramids, Notre Dame, and Lighthouse of Alexandria, too! :golfer3:

Of course, we invented the Bullseye putter so that's something, I guess! :golfing_banana:


ICT

Interesting stuff!

The right shoulder motion drives the hands down underneath the shoulders own path. Notice how steep his hand path is initially. Also notice that his right shoulder is almost straight above his hands. So if all he does with his right arm is push (as in extencior action or threecep drive loading), he is pushing the hands on an very steep plane. This plane could be drawn as a line straight from his right shoulder and through his pp#1.

There are opposing forces at work here. The force from his left shoulder will be pulling on a more shallow path than the right shoulder is pushing. And it all adds up to a hand path that is nevertheless much steeper than the inclined plane that the secondary assembly lever impacts the ball on. And as the right arm straightens, the push force from the right shoulder will gradually change it's inclination towards flatter.

The secondary assembly lever gets trapped underneath his shoulder turn and he can turn his shoulder hard on a plane that hovers above the ball, yet strike the ball with the sweet spot.

I don't understand the Yellow Book or Mr. Hogan's swing as well as you guys, but I think our man BUCKET is really onto something here!

Kevin

I think I heard Yoda on one of his videos that the idea of dropping the right shoulder way down to induce the hip action is a "perverted attempt" at proper zone one action.

I wonder if this is what he was referring to.

Good memory Chipinguru!

I remember that as well. I think he was referring to dropping the right shoulder creating more axis tilt at start down. I think this new theory of Mr. Bucket is Mr. Hogan's prescription to cure that very problem. This idea - alignment - "feel" would help you stay on top of the ball the way YODA does. Purely my opinion... I hope YODA jumps in to give us the blessing before I go ALL IN!

Kevin

I don't think Yoda was referring to Mr Hogan. Hogan drops his shoulder in the pictures above. But not excessively.

Another thing I notice from 12 Pieces pictures. Hogan holds the #2 and #3 PA angles for a long time, we all knew that. But it looks to me like he starts releasing #4 and #1 early and incrementally. Holding them too long would make these alignments impossible, again, in my opinion. I believe there is an awful lot to learn in this and the Tear My Swing apart threads.

Sequencing. 4-1------2-3

Thanks BUCKET!

Kevin

Look how far the dang club moves from the Fourth to fifth photo, and how little the hands do. The hips open up significantly between those two intervals too.

Magnificent.

For some reason, before today's posts, I never really understood the fascination with Hogan's swing. What a bonehead I am. 12 Piece really has me fired up about it now!

Kevin

Thanks . . . . but can't take credit for this idea . . . Eddie Cox has been talking about this for awhile now . . . I just never really "got it." . . . feeling . . . connect the right shoulder to the "pocket" above the left elbow joint . . . seems to pressure the lever assembly down

12 Pc, Ben Hogan was a Hitter? Really?

Nice thread Bucket. If I may I add a couple of thoughts for everyones consideration:

- The Right Shoulder being able to take the Power Package down the Inclined Plane is the basis for the Turned Shoulder Plane (range of Angles) and the Standard Shoulder Turn which Mr Kelley identified and recommended in 12-1 and 12-2.

- Re Mr Hogans Right Shoulder and Left Arm and their alignment to one another: The Left ARm is not on the Inclined Plane except for full swings in which the #3 Power Accumulator is Zeored.........gripping the club through the life line of the left hand as one would do in Basic Motion or Putting commonly. Something Mr Hogan didnt do if you recall the illustrations from his book. Therefore the prime consideration is really the relationship of the Right Shoulder to the Hands as its the Hands which are on Plane while the Left Arm is not.

-In the first photo Mr Hogan's Left ARm is roughly in line with his Right Shoulder but in lower photos it has dropped somewhat. Yes, this is normal Id say. But if you dont mind I'd like to talk about the Hands a bit: The Hands appear to be approximately on the same plane as the Right Shoulder in Startdown , the first photo. Hard to say cause you cant see the ball, but assuming that to be true.....this is by definition a TSP being employed. The best way to Startdown. However in the latter photos his Hands (and his left arm too) can be seen to be getting lower vis a vis the Right Shoulder .............this is to my mind caused by two things: 1. He is dropping his Hands to a lower plane an Elbow Plane . Which for Mr Hogan given his flat backswing Plane wasnt much of a drop in terms of degrees when looking at it "down the line". 2. The free ride that the Hands get courtesy of the Right Shoulder down the TSP does not last past Startdown. The Right Shoulder cant make it all the way to the Ball on the Turned Shoulder Plane. The Hands, the entire Power Package in fact continue the journey on their own without the pulling of the Right Shoulder as they have broken free, are accelerating away from the Right Shoulder by the commencement of the Downswing (Release). The Right Shoulder then levels out some normally ......... So the relationship between Right Shoulder and Hands (or Left ARm) will always get more divergent after Startdown, particularly for those that are in the process of shifting to a lower plane.

-the "perverted" Axis Tilt is so disgusting I can barely describe it but suffice it to say that instead of a Hip Slide to lower the Right Shoulder (the axis of the shoulders) all the time with a centered Head its a grotesque tilting of the shoulders (without the Hip Slide) which sends the Head backwards of its centered position. So you've lowered the Right Shoulder but at the cost of your Stationary Pivot Center...... no Pivot center and therefor no circle, no constant radius etc.


And a question for definition sake. Bucket when you say "launching pad" are you using it in the classic right shoulder hangs back and provides something for the Right Arm to thrust off against , in a Drive Loading kinda manner? I for sure see Drag Loading in Startdown for Mr Hogan and I also see his Right Shoulder going right on through the shot to that classic Hogan finish. So Id say its on the move not "hanging back" . Now if your saying he is Thrusting against a "launching pad" that is also moving .......4 Barrel given his Swingers Startdown......then that I could see maybe. Maybe......but before I "blast off" on that one....let me know what you're referring to.

Is this what Mr. Tomasello is talking about....
 

...at the end of his" Pivot" video?




ICT

Sure why not . . . . make your case for Swinging . . .

Trackman
 

I was thinking that if I had a Trackman, I bet I could qualify for the Professional National Championship. :toothy1: :snooty: :naughty:

Ah Luke , you did qualify for that tourney.

Im thinking it was the Mexican lunches.....or alignments maybe, not sure which. All Alignments being derived from impact geometry ......

I am not even sure that Ben Hogan could articulate the importance of the "D-plane".

What could he have possibly known about golf?

Alas!
 

That seemed to have slipped my mind... :^o

But, I agree with all of your assessments.

I don't want to argue the point :boxing: and It doesn't bother me if he Hit-Swung-Swat-Swit :golf: or nibbled on the ball, but are you using the glossary definitions included in the 6th Edition? :study:

Maybe Hogan was a Switter?

Thanks for a great post O.B.Left. The part I'm quoting interests me a lot. I think you touch upon something essential to understand Hogan's stroke and also something that's fundamental to golf in general. At least for those who impact the ball on a lower than TSP plane. There's something about that geometry - where a flat shoulder turn drives the hands down - that just spells sustained lag pressure to me.

This is part of the basis of my current instruction, the right shoulder motions, and this obviously affects the left shoulder. There is also an issue of their location from the face on.

Nice photo's!

I would like to see some vectors that basically ignored the right elbow. Vectors that goes straigth from the right shoulder and points to whatever it is pushing. I'm not sure whether it's pushing the hands, the clubhead or a MOI center somewhere between the two. But I am CERTAIN that something very important is happening between the shoulder and the club - and where the right elbow is just a connection without a geometrical purpose on its own.

Not for argument purposes . . . I'm actually not sure about it at this point . . . I just see some distinctly different shoulder motion from Hogan than others . . . HOw about this . .

Can you give us definitions and examples (pics maybe) of Flywheel motion vs. Backstop/Launching Pad?

Gotta get ready to burst out to work . . . but I'll chime in too.

Ok bucket are you saying the right shoulder follows the left elbow pocket or does it drive it. I guess swinging you could follow it or in hitting you could drive it. How does this relate to the "mind in the hands". Perhaps this type of swing thought could prevent the OTT move or the underplane problem. I anxiously await further flywheel and platform explanations. Once I've gottem then pray for a break in the temp so I can go to the range. Sorry you have to work bucket. I am going to sit by the fire all day like most old folks.

#1 Spin the Flywheel / Longitudinal Acceleration / Slap: Swinger

#2 Switter / Longitudinal Acceleration / Punch: Launching Pad on the Fly, Right Forearm Flying Wedge Aligned to Horizontal Hinge Paddlewheel Motion with Right Arm Punch-Thrust. Angled Hinge Action.

#3 Backstop/Launching Pad / Radial Acceleration / Punch: Hitter

Any of these Procedures can become greatness on the Golf Course. It's up to the Player.

I'd say "drives" and "supports" in terms of motion and geometry . . . right shoulder is part of the power package right? . . . Also this whole deal with the right shoulder supporting/driving or whatever we wanna call it the left arm is very much in line with Hogan's pane of glass . . . the pane of glass was NOT the swing plane . . . it was the hands being UNDERNEATH the pane which is THE PLANE THE SHOULDERS TURN ON . . . your hands were to be UNDER THE PANE (SHOULDERS) never BUST THROUGH . . . Shoulders ON TOP . . .

Who's doing what here? Who's "overriding" Centrifugal force?

LAG AND THRUST

6-C-0 GENERAL
Pivot Lag (9-1) is Body Power for Swingers (2-M-4), launching pad for Hitters (2-M-3), and for both, operates like a “gear train” to extend the Swing Radius of the Primary Lever to any point from the Shoulder Turn on down to the Feet (Zone #1). Both Inertia and the Moment Arm of the Thrust act as the same in that the farther from the center the greater the authority.

Accumulator Lag (7-19) and/or Thrust (7-11) determine the amount of Power generated by the Power Package – Zone #2 (9-2).

Clubhead Lag (7-19) promotes even and steady acceleration, assuring dependable control of distance. The Power Package utilizes four types of Thrust:
1. Accerlerating (Accumulators driving the Leverl Assemblies)
2. Non-Accelerating (Extensor Action supplying Power Package Mass)
3. Acceleration Control (Lag Pressure Point sensing Clubhead Inertia)
4. “Centrifugal Acceleration” (Centrifugal Force pulling the Clubhead toward its In- Line condition)

A picture I found of Hogan late in life. I think a very good case can be made that the right shoulder is still in line to drive the main lever of the power package here at P5.



Steve Stricker working on similar alignments at top?

NICE . . . still able to do it when old and crusty and still on a busted set of 170 year old wheels . . .

If you look at those pics of Fowler and Rose in comparison . . . there is definitely some differences in how their right arms and shoulders are working . . . not saying those cats are "wrong" . . both are amazing talents . . . but which of the 3 has the right shoulder providing the most "support" for the release motion of the right arm?

I see it. Very important stuff Bucket!

Possibly why some really good teachers of the machine are able to look so lazy through impact while still generating massive power? Alignments and Sequencing!!! :notworthy

Kevin

I would rather discuss the topic than debate it.

All golfers use CF. Some use it to Uncock the Left Wrist and Unbend the Right Elbow and Some use Right Arm Thrust to Straighten the Right Elbow and Uncock the Left Wrist.

Cool with me! I don't wanna fight with you! We been in enough fights with other foolz in the past 2 months right!

So let's discuss Fowler and Rose vs. Hogan . . . .

How would you catalog? Or is it possible? Are Fowler and Rose executing a plane line shift? Or is that what swinging "looks like" . . . or is it Hitting? Or is it off plane motion?

They are certainly doing something different than Hogan right?

my take
 

I don't want to be presumptuous, in thinking that I can speak in place of His Royal Highness, Lord Bucket. But, I'll give you some opinions from a commoner.

In 2-H, Homer writes about the direction of the Right Shoulder:

"But the Shoulders do have crucial On Plane functions – synchronizing and aligning the Pivot Motion and Thrust with those of the Power Package (Chapter 6). “On Plane” Right Shoulder Motion is possible only by titling its axis – the spine. See 7-14. In this area the Left Shoulder is helpless. The geometry of Shoulder Control deals only with Right Shoulder, for there are no guide lines for Left Shoulder control of the Right Shoulder. Therefore, variations in Right Shoulder location will vary the Left Shoulder location at Impact and, consequently, the Low Point location as well as the Angle of Approach (2-N).

Being a part of the Pivot and the Power Package, the Right Shoulder must reconcile them by moving with the greatest precision for thrust, speed, direction and distance. (7-3) So the Right Shoulder does not flap around haphazardly – it has many responsibilities. And variations in its Impact location will vary the Right Elbow’s Impact Bend and so may alter the Impact alignment of the Clubface."

So, the Right Shoulder can have direction, because it can move toward a Plane Line. There's no specific direction in "swinging left", as there's no direction for the Left Shoulder or the Hips. The Hips rotate more on a horizontal plane than on the inclined Plane. Therefore, giving them any direction is haphazard.

As the ball and Plane Line get closer to the body with a shorter club, the Plane steepens. As the ball and Plane Line moves away from the body with a longer club, the Plane shallows. Therefore, a Shoulder Turn Throw differs in direction with ball location. We do have options or preferences in steeper versus flatter Planes, as Nicklaus and Hogan were both successful.

When the Right Shoulder, the #3PP, and the Sweet Spot are married together at Top and move in the same direction in Start Down, the forces are aligned for maximum efficiency. Divergent forces are simply less efficient, but are found all the time on the PGA Tour.

In my own 4 Barrel Hit, the Pivot Drags the Power package toward the Plane Line with a Shoulder Turn Throw (10-20-C). And, I follow with a Right Arm Throw (10-20-B). It feels like I’m throwing a baseball at the golf ball.

12 Piece
Tried working on this today with very good results. Can't wait to explore it further.
Thank you for this gem.

:salut:

Lets see if we can see and understand the Plane Shift in the same way. The Plane Shift does not need to occur at Release. I think that for many Golfers the Plane Shift does occur at Release but both Hogan and Fowler Plane Shift at Startdown and their Sequenced Releases occur on the Elbow Plane.

Your observation of the Post Impact Clubshaft Angle at Follow-through is correct. I don't think that they're on the same Plane that they were at Impact. But I don't equate that with Hitting or Swinging. I would equate that with "Pivot Controlled Hands". It's allowing the Pivot to control the Alignments. I'm sure that they could teach their Pivot to move their Hands like Hogan moved His Hands but I think that the jury is still out on Hogan whether he used Pivot Controlled Hands vs Hands Controlled Pivot.

Can we separately discuss Plane Shifts because I think that either Acceleration Procedure, Hitting or Swinging can use any shift and any number of Shifts and almost anywhere in the Swing except Release through Follow-Through.

Very nice tie together with the book Ted. I never think to look in Chapter 2. Got to get over my fear of that chapter! :notworthy

Thanks!

Kevin

Can't the pivot assist with power by driving the lever, but still be CONTROLLED by the hands?

Kevin

Yes......

The Pivot generates the Raw underlying Power either like a Flywheel or, in addition, acts like a Backstop for Right Arm Thrust.

What tells the Pivot where to go?? The Hands should. The Pivot should go where the Hands need it to go and not subjugate the Hands into trying to accommodate the Pivot. The Pivot should Accommodate the Hands. But you can be very successful either way........