Refine release.
 

Winter is here so it is time to refine geometry and feel.

I would use the BC sequence to ask a release definition question:

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/s...Bobby+Clampett

Should we feel the start of release at the sequence labeled "release" or is it started at the point the right elbow starts to straighten?

There appears to be so much TGM logic behind the latter. I would like to start the discussion here.

The Bear

You have 4 accumulators. With the hitters protocol they 1,2 & 3 are released simultaneously. Perhaps 4 too? With a swingers protocol you have a much more sequenced release.

The sequenced release goes hand in hand with a dual horizontal hinge action where you first bring your hands down low (acc #1 & 4), then bring your clubhead down (Accumulator #2 and then finish the release with a lot of (horizontal) Acc #3 release.

Sweep release versus snap release versus anything inbetween also matters to when you should feel each of the accumulators release.

So what and when you should feel it depends on your desired stroke pattern. It's your choice basically.

Thanks BerntR,

I'll stick with the sequenced release first. One of the things is that commentators continue to talk about LATE release- The Clampett article talks about late release and lables a sequence element release with the hands already down at the pocket and the right arm 3/4 straight.(see the picture labled release) TGM said that the left wrist is cocked and uncocked ( Accumulator #2 release) by the bending right arm and the right arm is part of release and is thrown into impact. That would make release start at the point the right arm starts to straighten. The frame labled release would be the intermediate point of the 2-3 sequence where #3 becomes dominant. If a golfer trys to force the hands deep before release he gets cocking of the right hand. This may look good and as HK said is hard to detect but is throwing the club at the ball. What do you think?? I would like to fix that because I think I(and many others) "TRY and get late release" and that is wrong Per. TGM


The Bear

Good observation and I agree with the conclusion but perhaps not with the premises. The premise being the frozen right wrist. Take a look at Bobby's right wrist down there. It is maximally bent and I bet that it isn't level anymore either. If you add wristbend and wrist cock in your right wrist as you straighten the right elbow you can hold accumulator #2 even though you straighten the right elbow. I've studied a few supposed to be TGM snap releases and I always see increase right wrist bend and wrist cock just prior to the accumulator #2 release.

I am quite convinced that snap releasers increase the angle between the shaft and their right forearm from the top down to where the Accumulator#2 starts to release. And you can't do that without increasing the combination of right wrist bend and wrist cock.

So I think that is part of it.

The other part is that you initiate your down stroke with a combination of hula and spine side bending - basically tilting your right shoulder straight down towards right pocket. So you drive the right shoulder deeper and fartner. That allows you to keep your pith elbow longer without cheating.

I think you can do the increased right wrist thing without throwing the club. The inertia of the club will do the increase for you if you find a hand path that prevents the clubhead from starting the release before very very late. If you look at Garcia and some other guys with a fast transition (which is typical for swingers) you will also see they put a huge load on the clubshaft during transition. A strong pivot rotation and a clubhead that resists it will increase the angle between the right hand and the club shaft.. Keeping the pressure on the right foot for a long time in the down stroke should keep the pully size small and help to delay the release I think.

Some more data video on release
 

This may add to clarity.
Ben Hogan shows a sequenced release that looks exactly as we are thinking TGM would describe a swingers sequenced release.
More "food for thought" as the expression goes. What do you think?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eNlUKLPFwQE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_tkZegUozY

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yJ5Jy...eature=related

The Bear

It certainly has a the sequencing that we're discussing here. But apart from that I don't think Hogan did a TGM swing.

But look at some real hogan swings as well. And try to freeze the frame with hands at hip height. And look how acute his wrist angles seem to be.


But in any regard, Hogans motion is poetry.

Ive never seen this one before , thanks Bear.

I'm thinking any similarity between Mr Hogan's Sequenced Release to what Homer described is not a coincidence.

Did you ever notice how Homer suggests keeping your Left Hand turned to the plane to delay Release? CF will throw out #2 Angle once the clubhead moves to the outside of the Hands (from a DTL view). So dont let it. It is a way of resisting cf... throwout. With a fully bent right arm even assuming the Right Shoulder is taking the intact Power Package Downplane. Look at how nicely Mr Hogan takes his Right Shoulder through the shot. Its a work of art.

Active right arm extension would push the left wrist off the inclined plane inducing Release ....... Simultaneous Release.

Slo mo down the line Hogan .....nice. Period of Right Shoulder acceleration , then left arm acceleration then clubhead and finally ball acceleration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_tkZegUozY



http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=129186786 1

Honestly, I'm lost trying to envision the Throwout from a "DTL view".

Do you see the "pitch" right elbow? It seems to me almost impossible to maintain the RFFW and sequenced release with the #2 uncocking by the right arm straightening without a good pitch right elbow. I am trying o figure it out geometrically if it is even possible to hold alignments without the deep pitched elbow and the smooth shoulder coming down its plane. Is that part of a good release?

The Bear

That's why the pitch elbow is partnering with the swing in 12-2, Bear.

Are you trying to reinvent TGM perhaps :laughing9 (It may be good learning strategy though)

In fact what I am doing, in a way, is reverse engineer TGM and look at optional procedure and see that choice is not always wise because choice may require compensations and i see the winter as a good time to review and get rid of compensations. By thinking out their advantages if any. I am trying to find the BEST uncompensated release in this thread. We have only toushed swinging/ sequenced/horizontal hinge so far.

The Bear

I understand. That's a project that interests me.

Here's food for thought:

If you're playing with feather light sticks you will get the most action if you do put more of the work in your hands. Or just use one hand. If you have a stick without a clubhead and try to swing it as fast as you're capable of, a one handed swing will produce more speed than a two handed. And the back hand will be the winner. The pivot and the Left Hand will slow you down if you use two hands! Accumulator #3 will probably be more important for swing speed than any of the other accumulators because there's a lot of leverage in just rotating the wrist.

Do the opposite and swing a heavy stick, or a normal club with weights attached. The hands and arms will have more than enough just holding on to the club and you will have to adjust things to prevent the swing from breaking down under the weight it carries. The release holds so much moving mass that you need to brace yourself to prevent the swing from breaking down. You will be forced to use both arms and the pivot to generate some speed. And you will probably not be strong enough to snap release without getting your hands serious disconnected in the process. And you will probably be forced to apply a more sweeping motion just to keep everything together.

Replace the light and heavy sticks with a golfer that is super strong and one that is super weak and it should be clear that they shouldn't swing the club the same way for the optimum result. THe rest of us aren't either super strong or super weak, but somewhere in the middle. But we are different and we need to optimise the tradeoffs involved between speed and strength differently.

I am lost
 

I am lost with your drawing??? Most likely just me! Need a few words. Thanks.


The Bear

I agree. I have experimented with a "Medicus" swing meter- (the type that is clamped to the shaft) - and have found that with a half shaft with a grip I can swing it above its limits- Greater than 150 Mph. On my driver I am about 107 Mph.
There are many things that seem to make sense but don't. The #2/ right forearm release is one of them. I looked at a lot of the pro's swings and looked at the clubface down at where "many" say the snap release starts- TGM/sequence release ( if both #2 and #3 have not been released) would have the clubface still on plane. The pro's, in general, have the face pretty well rotated to impact position. Then I remember the 5 lessons picture of the muscle man and this being the start to hit spot. And, I recall Fred Couples saying that from that position he hits hard. Another question I need to resolve is the Plane shift procedure. How does it happen? Lay the club off? Loop it under ? There are lots of winter alignment and procedures to work on. After last year I find it is a mistake to just go back to basic motion because, at least for me- and I doubt I am an exception, That can become a "catch 22".

The Bear

I do the plane shift by a hip slide and sidebending the upper spine. It doesn't feel like a planeshift. It feels like a change of direction and getting connected move.

Release
 

The Easy Part:
The Clubhead Orbits a Rotating Body because we hold onto the Club at the grip. If we let go of the grip, the club fly's away.

The Middle part:
If, from the Top of our Backstroke, we allow the pivot to pull the Power Package onto a path, the Club will rotate around the same center as the Power Package. This should be the Stationary Head. The Club wants to go for the ride. If your Shoulders were connected to your Hips with ball bearings, you can go around and around and the club would follow, and the Clubhead would happily trail behind and simply enjoy the view.

The Hard Part: Centrifugal Force Release in the Golf Swing.
So far, the Clubhead has no intention of changing what its doing; which is orbiting the Pivot Center. Your job is to change the Clubhead Center of Orbit from the Pivot to the Left Shoulder. The Clubhead will gain a burst of speed when this occurs because the Clubhead wants to get in-line with the Left Arm. Up until now, the Downstroke has only provided Clubhead momentum, at release is when you introduce the Clubhead to CF.

When you see a Player, at impact with his head well back of center and his left shoulder opposite the ball, then he, more likely than not, replaced his Pivot Center with the Left Shoulder. This isn't good. The goal is to not change the Pivot center or substitute the center with another body part, but to move the Clubhead Orbit Center from your Pivot to the Left Shoulder (or Right Elbow).

K, I just reviewed things and I believe you are correct .....the clubhead is subject to CF throwout after the clubhead moves outside the hands from a caddy view. I stand corrected.

Thank you for this.

It seems to me to be very similar to the manner in which a water skier is subject to CF throwout when the boat takes a corner. The skier moves outside the boat and accelerates Radially. Prior to that the skier and the boat are traveling in line and accelerating at the same speed. The tighter the turn made by the boat (the smaller the pulley wheel, Endless Belt Analogy) the more the angular acceleration. So to delay release you have to lengthen the period of Longitudinal Acceleration.

"10-19-C DRAG LOADING

Drag Loading is the Rope Handle Technique of the "Swinger", an out-and-out PULL, striving to accelerate the Clubshaft lengthwise, from a quick Start Down to Release. Start the Club down as thought it were being drawn from a quiver like a n arrow--feathered end first. Maintain this motion until the Release switches ends. This is possible only if and for as long as, Inertia can hold the Clubhead inside the arc of the Hands or hold to a Line Delivery Path (2-L). Centrifugal Force will set in when the Clubhead crosses to the out-side and it will begin to pull into its own incidental orbit per 2-P and 2-K#5. Then further acceleration can be applied only at Pressure Point #1 to support the PULL on the Clubshaft ----especially for Short Shot Power. "


By "lengthwise" he means dragging longitudinally, like the skier being pulled straight line by the boat both accelerating at the same speed Release.

So a longitudinal or straight line hand path with the clubhead following straightline will have no associated CF Throwout because there is no CF, no turning motion. But once the Hands, like the speed boat, take the turn ....CF and Throwout of #2.

If Im right about this....this would suggest to me that one of the best ways to delay Release is to try as best as you can to Pull the Hands Straightline from Top and keep your Left Hand flat to the Inclined Plane.

"10-20-E WRIST THROW

Here the Right Hand remains palm-up to the Plane during the Uncocking of the Left WRist to produce a Sequenced Release per 2-G and 4-D-0. Especially compatible with Swinging. See 6-H-0-F.

By deliberately initiating the Wrist Roll at any point before reaching the end of the Delivery Path Line , the Non-Automatic version can be produced. "

"By deliberately initiating the Wrist Roll" meaning the left hand rotates off the plane......the boat is now not pulling the skier lengthwise, CF throwout has been "Triggered".

So the question is how on earth to get your hands to travel Straight Line for ideal Longitudinal Acceleration? Daryl your drawings of the circular Hand Path can maybe help with this. If you were to Startdown from End , 90 degrees of #2 Angle and mark End with a dot on the Hand Path's radius.......then skip down to Bobby Clampetts Release Point and mark it with a dot , then draw a cord from the dot at Top to the dot at his Release point. This cord would show a significant section of the circle bisected. A significant amount of long curved Hand Path. Now contrast this with a dot made at TOP and then a cord dropped from there down to Bobby's Release Point say. Notice how much more of a straight line the Hands are taking. Less curve meaning less CF Throwout. Now what if you added a little common speak "down cocking" into the mix from TOP? That'd delay the point where the clubhead crosses outside of the hands right?

I'd suggest that stopping your Hands at Top is one way a lot of us could improve our Longitudinal , inline Acceleration. The other is to keep the Left Hand Turned to Plane. From there you got options ....auto or non auto.

Personally when I look at Hogan I see a 10-20-C (Right) Shoulder Turn Throw and then a 10-20-E WRIST THROW, combo. But I could be wrong.

Please feel free to rip this apart anyone............Im here to learn.

I'm far from the expert on the "Endless Belt Effect" because all that I can understand from it is that although the Clubhead Surface Speed increases when going from a straight line to around the pulley, the RPM of the Hands and Clubhead should remain the same.

So, we have two ways of preventing the Clubhead from pulling into it's own Orbit.

1st. Hold the Clubhead inside the Arc of the Hands
or
2nd. Hold to a Line Deliver Path


The diagrams below illustrate holding the Clubhead inside the Arc of the Hands and then what happens when we allow the Center of the Clubhead Arc to move to the Left Shoulder. When we move the Center of the Clubhead Arc to the Left Shoulder, the Clubhead moves outside the Arc of the Hands.

I know it needs a lot of work. The diagrams are really awful. I need time to think about them.

inside vs. outside arc
 

Using the water-skier/ boat example:

Outside the arc is the skier tow-rope outside the wake of the boat.

Inside the arc is when the tow-rope crosses the wake. either because the skier never got outside before the boat turns or the boat turns so sharp that the tow-rope is inside the wake.

Because you can't push a string example ends here.

BUT, A shaft bends.

If the angle (approx) of the shaft is "inside" the arc it will stay there and if your wrists are flexible enough you can hit yourself in the back of the head with the club head (softly though)

The straight line would be a special case where the arc of the hands have an infinite radius so the club will be inside and just line up behind the force pulling it.

Just how I visualize the example.

The Bear

Explore the extremes:

Case one- very large pulley- the club is "cast" very early in the downswing- has no lag near impact and has likely passed the ball before the hands.

Case two- very small pulley- the club has been traveling at 20 mph (linear) and cf is not sufficient to accelerate the club head AROUND PULLEY to 100+ mph so EXTREME lag pressure is needed.

Different things happen
#1 can have velocity but no mass
#2 has lots of mass but velocity is a problem.

Swinging is manipulating CF.


I am still hoping to use the magic of the right forearm, 7-3, in the release "process" but I'm not sure it's intended to fit.


The Bear

I believe it does fit. I'm typing on my iPhone but take a look at the Hogan photo sequence I posted. He takes his right shoulder down plane on a TSP angle, then as his Left Arm accelerates away from his shoulders his right arm is straightening. As it must. There is a delay but this right arm straightening (passive or active). Pushes the left hand off it's turned to the plane alignment. You're into Radial. Lag Pressure point rotates from knuckle to first joint in the index finger.

But ........I do recall my physics marks in
Highschool , Geometry, architectural drawings , perspective no problem. Physics......I hit a few clangers on occasion.

A point that needs mentioning. Although it may look like this release discussion would result in an early release and throw-away, that is not an intent. This is an alignment solution/problem. Particular to section 4-D-1, last paragraph, the "hard to detect" wrist actions.
And
Understanding 12-3-0 sections 6-7-8, emphasis on section 6 #20, #21, #22

Do you mind if I just link this in here?

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/index.p...That-Line.html

I'm not trying to invent something well invented-I'm just trying to apply the well invented.

The Bear