relation of chip, pitch, full shot to motion curriculum
 

Hi All,

I started with TGM before 2 month, read the book, but now have many many questions.

What is the relation between golf shot type(chip,pitch,full swing) and the basic motion curriculum stages 1-basic,2-acquired,3-total ?

Could you anybody here explain for example the total motion for chip shot ?

Thank you.
Mike

Welcome to the forum. I've been here 6 weeks and don't know so much, but as far as I have understood a chip shot is (can) not (have) a total motion. A total motion is a full swing. A chip is a basic motion - only 2 feet back and 2 feet thru. A half swing is a acquired motion, arms parallel to the ground back and thru.

If you were to match them up:
chip=basic
pitch=acquired
full swing=total.

Disclaimer:
While basic motion is 2 feet back and through a chip could be close to total motion (100 yd chips on a links course). A pitch/sand/flop shot is often total motion. So they really are not one and the same.

The motion for a 100 yards chip shot must at least be acquired or maybe even total, I would think - is then this a chip shot any more? What's the difference between this and a required motion punch shot?

Basic (Stage 1), Acquired (Stage 2) and Total Motion (Stage 3) is a curriculum intended to instruct one in the "Three Zones". Hands, Arms, Pivot. A Wind Instrument musician practices Scales, Arpeggios and Whole Tones.

It may be best to keep them separate from on the course ball striking terminology.

Mike,

Go to the Gallery and check out "Lesson with Yoda - Collin Neeman". A whole series of video clips to view for free.

You will see a very competent young man putting another very competent, even younger, man through his paces.

Basic, acquired and total motion for you to watch, with the full benefit of the masters voice to enhance your viewing pleasure.

Basic Motion as written in my 6th anyways would not cover "shoulder or pivot putting", a very popular method. What say you D?

Did the 7th make a change in this regard? Maybe as you say Basic is a stepping stone in the "curriculum" to Total Motion rather than an actual method of hitting little chips or putts.

I don't mean that the Motion Curriculum's are stepping stones. I meant that they each specialize in one of the 3 Zones. The Golf Swing is comprised of 3 Zones. Each Zone is trained separately.

Basic Motion: Zone 3 (only move the arms enough to create the Flying Wedges)

#5. Plane Line
#6. Plane Angle – Basic
#7. Plane Angle – Variations
#10. Hinge Action


Acquired Motion: Zone 2 (Added,,,add shoulders only)

#11. Pressure Point Combinations
#18. Left Wrist Action
#19. Lag Loading
#20. Trigger Types
#21. Power Package Assembly Point
#22. Power Package Loading Action


Total Motion: Zone 1 (Added,,,Torso, Hips, knees)

#12. Pivot
#13. Shoulder Turn
#14. Hip Turn
#15. Hip Action
#16. Knee Action
#17. Foot Action

D, you use Hands only for Basic? Hello Arnie?

I love the 12-5 The Basic Motion Curriculum. It is the best way I know to differentiate the separate identities of each Zone and the components unique to hitting and swinging and their variations. Right through the bag. A tremendous way to learn the game and polish your short shots at the same time. I like to add various Hinge Actions to the Curriculum for bonus points.

But Im not sure it is necessarily the way to play shorter shots on the course. It can be but not necessarily. In my 6th edition Homer zeroes out the Pivot in Stage One, Basic Motion which includes putting. But for example, I'd venture that most tour pro's use a shoulder powered putting golf stroke. A 10-3-H PAW Minor Basic Stroke as defined by Homer. Im not saying Homer didnt know his short shots Im just wondering if the Basic Motion Curriculum is first and foremost just that ......a curriculum, a "course of study" for Total Motion excellence.

I get Mikes question re Total motion for a chip shot. Most of us use the term "Basic Motion' to describe a chip or putt but Im thinking he must have read 3.0 where Homer says.......

"......."Basic Motion" (Preface) is simply "Up-and-Back-and-Down-and Out" per 7-23 from Drive to Putt. Your "Total Motion" is that Basic Motion plus its Component Variations (Chapter 10)-selected and/or othewise (Chapter 12). Whatever you are "working on" must produce a change In Feel because its a selected addition to your previous Total Motion Feel-your "Acquired Feel", the present stage of your Total Motion development."

Ah, is it just me ? Is your head hurting? Are there two different definitions for the term "Basic Motion" or have we misappropriated it to mean chipping and putting? Why not just say Stage One , Chipping and Putting? Stage Two , Pitch shots or whatever......each with a Basic Motion plus whatever Component Variation you are working on which forms a new Total Motion with its Acquired Feel. Or something. I dunno........

Me, having started with the Neeman video...... I go with Basic being "about" two feet back and two feet through. Acquired is "no more than" Right Forearm parallel to the ground to the club being 45 degrees to the ground ........etc

I put the brackets around "about" and "no more than" because early on I missed those subtleties and was using the exact same length of stroke in each Stage and varying the Lag Pressure for distance regulation.

hopeless . :think:

what's so hopeless?

Thanks to all,

here is my opinion to my question in relation to your replies ...

1) airair - no, I do not agree with you, I believe that all golf strokes have its own total motion
fyi page 221 of 7th edition - 12-0 says: Chips and Putts are merely miniaturized. And each must have its own Total Motion

2) Daryl - It is interesting point of comparing Curriculum motions to Zones, but ie #14 is first mention in acquired motion, I think you are

not true.

3) Collin Neeman videos - good videos, but there are many errors in his swing such as practice

swing broken left wrist, for acquired motion much #2 accumulator without arms moving up, for full swing poor balance (my observation) and

there is no exact description how to repair or develop correctly, I cant see/hear it

It would be better to see PGA tour TGM videos!

4) O.B.Left is closer to my view on motion curriculum

I think basic motion curriculum (with all 3 stages) is conception/written instruction for learning full golf shot.
To learn full golf shot you must go through all 3 stages to learn all TGM aspects of full golf shot, master stage one go to second and then third. In 12-5 curriculum are some prefixed component variations, because author supposes this is the best way to learn golf shot.

My deduction is this ... the golfer must prepare his/her own curriculum (or take another one from instructor) for other golf shots such as chip.
My idea is ... I will take all components from the basic motion from 12-5-1 (change what I need and practice), then add my stage2 from 12-5-2 and change for my chip shot, from stage2 need for example Weight Shift for my chip curriculum, then practice, then add my stage3 for example elbow position to my chip shot Total Motion.

Do you agree with me ?

I don't want to impose my thoughts on you - I'm toiling with this to find out what to think. That each shot has its own total motion I find very confusing. In that case one could say that the total motion of the basic motion is 2-3 feet back and 2-3 feet thru. I would rather say that it's the normal range of the basic motion - about a quarter swing. When we get up to a half swing with the arms parallel to the ground we have a required motion and over that again the total motion. Does it really make sense to talk about the total motion of the total motion?

I hope somebody can comment on this to clear this up in case I have it all wrong.

Sorry for the following Vapid Post.


"The Motion makes the shot" is one of HK's sayings. When HK claims that "each (shot) must have its own Total Motion", he is saying that each of the 24 components must be dealt with by either using or zeroing out one variation in each component. The word "Total" means a 'complete' "Stroke Pattern". I offer the following quotes to support the definition of "Total"


Curriculum Intent:

I believe that the intent of the Curriculum, is to teach each of the three Zones. First learn "Hands", then, when adding the "Arms", it will become clear whether the "Arms" are affecting the proper execution of the Hands. Then add the "Pivot" and it will become clear whether the Pivot is affecting Zone 1 and 2.

Please read the following quotes from the 6th and 7th Editions. (Bold by Daryl)

...and in the 7th Edition (Lord forgive me)

Does that mean you agree/or not with my assumption in post #13?

airair: I don't want to impose my thoughts on you - I'm toiling with this to find out what to think. That each shot has its own total motion I find very confusing.

Each Stroke should have a "Total" Motion insofar that each Stroke is comprised of 24 components.




airair: In that case one could say that the total motion of the basic motion is 2-3 feet back and 2-3 feet thru. I would rather say that it's the normal range of the basic motion - about a quarter swing.

"Total Motion" does not mean Length of Stroke. "Basic Motion" uses 24 Components. The Hands move only far enough in "Basic Motion" for one to assemble the "Primary Lever" (and Flying Wedges). From "Standard Address", the Hands move about 9" to the Right.



airair: When we get up to a half swing with the arms parallel to the ground we have a required motion and over that again the total motion.

"Acquired Motion" has the Right forearm not to exceed parallel-to-the-ground. Why is it called "Acquired"? Because you "Acquire" the "Secondary Lever": Wrist Cock---Hitters can "Right Triceps Thrust and Swingers can use CF to use the Secondary Lever.

So----"Basic Motion" is "Primary Lever" and "Acquired Motion" is "Secondary Lever".



airair: Does it really make sense to talk about the total motion of the total motion?

The word "Total" in "Total Motion: Stage Three, Curriculum" is the use of All Three Zones and 12 Sections.

Very helpful, again, Daryl!
 

I feel as if all three zones really do offer insights to the Hands, primarily. But. like mastering musical scales, each insight gives you appreciation for the other notes and vibrations.

Having allowed myself a full Pivot, now, and after watching "The Address Routine" premium videos for the 20 th time or so, I realized that Ted and Yoda's hand positions were really informed by their Impact Fix rehearsal. But Jeff made a comment that he and Ted are feeling the same things.

I started seeing RFT and my right hand on plane for swinging and hitting. I remembered one of the instructors, Jeff, I think, talking about trusting his right hand to square up by itself, meaning it was open to the BLP until it did square up by itself.

When I marched back a little to form my Impact Fix tonight, I felt that excellent weight on # 3 PP. I remembered the heavy mop. I froze my right hand on plane as I waggled with hitting and swinging motion. I "Put my mind in my hands." I held the palm of my right hand facing the sky as I did RFT over and over. I could feel the lag of the weight of my hand (in # 3 PP) in both hitting and swinging with my right palm on plane! Awesome!

Full marching Pivot=swing and # 3 PP was underneath the club. Acquired Motion
hit with right palm up and the transition pressure against # 3 was caught and then I carried it with my right palm up, so far down it was ridiculous! JerryG called me last night and described this to me and I figured it out, today.

And then the hinges made a lot more sense because of the Pivot. Angled Hinge on a hit with my 9.5 degree Adams driver. The ball just kept going up! I thought I was mistakenly rolling to a vertical hinge! It was just my right hand on plane through the shot carrying #3 PP lag well past impact. The Horizontal Hinge rolled all by itself during the swing as I tried like hell to hold my right palm up past my front foot. The Pivot made it very doable! The ball didn't seem to mind the wind blowing at us on the range.

As I got comfortable with the feeling of the right palm up (on plane), all my strokes seemed shorter with more bite and explosion of the ball off the club face. I realized that my Power Package was truly stationary for the first time as the Pivot just delivered a beating to the range balls.

I kept looking!!! I had bumbled on a heavy Extensor Action in earlier rounds that allowed me to shoot some low 80's. But the heavy EA, would tighten up my driver and shoulder on the downswing with tension causing some nasty snaps. The heavier EA has something in common with the right palm facing the sky at Impact Fix;it preserves that palm position! :idea1:

Severe Bent Right Wrist helped me shoot an 81. Uhmm, right palm facing the sky until my right arm ran out of stretch! Now, with the Pivot, Right palm to sky=BRW= # 3PP lag carry = to finish =never ending lag.

With wedges, 9 iron, 4 iron, hybrid, driver (and I'll try the putter, too), the ball jumped off the clubs, tonight. My Pivot showed me my right palm on plane, lag, # 3 PP and my mind in my hands!

I just have to remember not to hit my driver, tomorrow on all but are longest holes. The ground is so hard. I also have to remember that the ball lands more softly on the greens, not the fairway! :)

Thanks fellas!

YBGF

Another Hijacked Post by Innercityteacher. :naughty:

Thanks Daryl and innercityteacher I feel like a pupil who has difficulties to understand what the teachers are talking about. I'll read it several times and see if I get it... before Christmas.

opinion
 

I believe all strokes have all 24 components, BUT, some/many may be ZEROed. Move the club- move it ONLY with total motion.

May be wrong but failing to recognize this can be problematic.
Like arms only swings, poor pivot etc.

The Bear

Thanks Daryl, for your explanation in post #16.

Could you explain for what purpose is curriculum in 12-5 ?

And how can I prepare stroke patern for short nad long chip shots and if this patern will relate to curriculum ?

D likes to hike his belt up and then adopt a Hands only pigeon toed basic motion.........

If the same question was posed to you (and not D:) what would then be your answer?

- the question being:

Could you explain for what purpose is the curriculum in 12-5 ?

And how can I prepare a stroke pattern for short and long chip shots and if this pattern will relate to the curriculum ?

12-5 is a way of learning golf...... incrementally. You build it from the ground up, slowly, with variations to the extent you are able. At the least you have a very usable simple methodology , like two or three accumulator drive loading for instance. But for the more talented it can lead to a master's level of execution. Especially when you bring in Hinge Action and other variations.

If you read 12-5-0 BASIC REQUIREMENTS you'll see you start with a short continuos motion back and through without a ball even. But even there, at the beginning there is something to master before you move on.......something quite profound actually.

As for your chip shot pattern........you have options , lots of them. Experiment , have fun with it, play around with it. 12-5-1, Stage One 10. lists Accumulator #4 , Left ARm Motion. A 10-3-D PULL Minor Basic Stroke. But if you're Hitting you could use Accumulator #1 instead, the Right Arm. Typically a 10-3-K BAT, Minor Basic Stroke. See the Minor Basic Strokes for more options for shorter shots.

You need to regulate the power for short little shots by employing only one source of power , one power accumulator but that source of power can be located in any of the Three Zones. Take putting for instance: Hands only putting (like Arnie used to do). Arms only , (left or right arm but not both) , or Pivot only (shoulder stroke). The latter though not listed in 12-5 is without doubt the most common method on tour and described in 10-3-H THE PAW Minor Basic Stroke.

Why did Homer prefer arm motions for 12-5-1 when he clearly understood the possible alternatives , popular ones as well? I can only speculate that he thought them to be better suited to the pupils progression through the curriculum. A "sameness" being present as you progressed.

Its sort of like Phil's putting stroke looking like his chipping stroke which looks like his pitching stroke..........there is a sameness there. Its built , built , built up. But if you or Phil for that matter developed a strong preference for a unique and different putting or different chipping stroke, a departure from the sameness so to speak.......if it worked better for you.........by all means do it! It's a game and one we are supposed to enjoy. It will require a little change when you move from one Stage to the other or from chipping to putting say .......not theoretically ideal but not unusual either.

Homer gave some serious thought to 12-5 so I wouldnt discard its prescribed components too quickly though. It formed the basis for the Bachelor level Certification test and is to my mind his greatest contribution to the plight of Joe Duffer.

I thought I was illustrating your point Daryl
 

I'm sorry! I needed a more explicit summary statement. How about this?

All 3 zones are inter-related and a person's perspective can change based on the insight they enjoy from any one of the zones, as often as those insights occur. Here is an example of how insight from the Pivot (Zone 1) really changed the physical feeling I had in my hands and the # 3 PP (Zone # 3) .

Let me be sure to woodenly parrot every aspect of all the previous posts in a thread in my posts, so that any reader, anytime, anywhere, can completely comprehend all the details and inferences necessary, and the necessary TGM references, sufficient to go running and screaming from the room and give up this great game forever! Oh wait, about 10 million people give up the game every year, already! Sheesh!

YBGF

Basic-relation of chip, pitch, full shot to motion curriculum
 

HI Air!

When I first started with this TGM site, I was determined to follow the correct steps to improve my golf swing in a basic way.

So, I hit a lot of chips, THEN pitches, THEN full shots. What I came to realize is that TGM is more like a work of art than a science in that it uses very accurate observations to entertain golfers. Golfers are entertained by becoming MUCH BETTER Golfers! :)

All 3 of the shots mentioned above share a central reality in that they are caused by movement. Our bodies are built for movement; HK said:


"......."Basic Motion" (Preface) is simply "Up-and-Back-and-Down-and Out" per 7-23 from Drive to Putt. Your "Total Motion" is that Basic Motion plus its Component Variations (Chapter 10)-selected and/or othewise (Chapter 12).

Whatever you are "working on" must produce a change In Feel because its a selected addition to your previous Total Motion Feel-your "Acquired Feel",

the present stage of your Total Motion development." (my emphasis)

We feel all the time since our bodies are always moving in some form or fashion. (Blood, heart, breath...chips, pitches, full shots and putts...these are a few of my favorite things...) HK was a fully wired, fully aware, person, IMHO (IMHO is not a TGM component reference). :)

I believe HK felt the whole swing in everything he did! His mechanical snapshots were of a dynamic human action. He wanted us to understand each tree and the whole forest as the forest changed in every season.

I WILL NOW USE ANOTHER METAPHOR TO ILLUSTRATE MY FEELING ABOUT CHIPS, PITCHES, AND FULL SHOTS TO THE FULL MOTION CURRICULUM. :)
Hopefully, you are still reading, Air.

Michelangelo's "Pieta" actually seemed to breath when I stood in front of it, though it is made out of marble. Michelangelo trained his gift by making a basic motion long before he made sketches which acquired more human details and long before he was commissioned to perform a total "work of art."

Michelangelo's basic motion? Drawing water drops, streams, rain clouds, fog, lakes, seas and human tears were things he filled his sketch books with. He drew motion. HK describes motion using a golf club.

Wanna learn the basic stroke? Work in all 3 zones whenever you FEEL like it, but make sure you work a little in all 3 every day. Do a few chips, pitchs, and a few full swings and Pivot out of your shoes! Your FEELfor golf will grow much more effectively by experiencing all 3 zones as often as possible! When you get a certain feeling that works with a well hit ball of any length, try to identify the mechanics or vice-versa!

Did you see Lynn's new video post, yet? He did a good job. I felt somewhat frustrated for him because his task was to limit his thoughts and presentations on such an exciting subject.


Some guy said :

Basic (Stage 1), Acquired (Stage 2) and Total Motion (Stage 3) is a curriculum intended to instruct one in the "Three Zones". Hands, Arms, Pivot. A Wind Instrument musician practices Scales, Arpeggios and Whole Tones.

It may be best to keep them separate from on the course ball striking terminology.


I think you should combine all 3 Zones as often as possible in any order you wish. You might come up with Handel's "Messiah," "What a Wonderful World, or "The Girl from Ipanema!" Your hcp. will improve as will your feelings! :laughing1


YBGF

Thank you. I certainly read it all - and I think I understood what you are saying - and it's sounds like good advice well worth listening to.

I like to reread the preface-
 

preface
Triad
3 imperatives
3 functions
3 stations

all strokes

My opinion- yoda's teaching- HK book.

The Bear

circle of three's. Buckminster Fuller style.
 

Lots of three's , eh Bear? Three types of Lag , three Zones, three Stages to 12-5 , three sides to the triangle, three Hinge Actions, etc etc. Somewhere along the way the system "ultimates in its own simplification". The Triad. The three sets of three.

Of note is that Impact is not a Station (Address, Top and Finish) which is important to recognize when beginning 12-5.

From 12-5-0 BASIC REQUIREMENTS "Use a slow, smooth motion up-and-back, down-and-out and up-and-in the same distance in both directions and as continuosly as possible.

Make no adjustment during the Stroke, for-or because of -Impact , NEVER EVER. That is "Hacking at the Ball" and produces only "Hackers." ......."

Which to my mind relates to Steering. Not to take things in a theoretical circle......sorry. Darn crazy book's made me crazy too.

application of instruction
 

Now I understand what I want to know, thanks to all.

The chapter 12 and especially 12-5 is inctruction how can be TGM applied and started to learn (together with chapter 3). In the yellow book there are not enough such instruction to learn different golf shots, but the book provides system for build paterns and way(curriculum) for learning them.

As I stated in the start of the thread I focusing to TGM only 2 months. I do not have avaiable instructor, and that is why I must focuse on instructing myself to proper application and translation of TGM.

I have other questions and problems with component applications, but for them I will open separate threads.

Well said.