Hank Haney
 

Ok; so Hank and Tiger split. Whatever. Anyway, I don't know anything about Hank Haney's Swing Philosophy but I read that the "one plane" swing is part of it and that raised my interest.

I visited his web site and viewed a Video about Grip Pressure. HH recommends that if you Hook the Ball, then tighten your grip pressure to prevent the Clubface from Closing through Impact and if you hit the ball to the right, then loosening your grip will allow the Clubface to freely close through Impact. That's easy enough.

This post is not intended to discuss their relationship or praise/criticize Hank Haney's Swing Philosophy/Pattern. However, I am open to discussing the - "Tasering" - of Golf Tournament Spectators.

To view more videos that outline his fundamentals, you need to first register on his website. I can't bring myself to do that, so, I was wondering if someone knows the answer to the following question.

Is Hank Haney's "One Plane" swing similar to Homer Kelley's Zero or Single Plane Shift?

We need Charles Barkley on here to give some insight

If Mr. Barkley had hooked up with one of the teachers on this board he would not only still be playin golf, he would be playing very good, enjoyable golf.

Hank Haney has a different definition on a swing plane than HK. If the shaft has a constant plane angle it is regarded as being on plane. He advocates a constant shaft plane angle where the shaft plane at the top is above the shaft plane at impact.

It could possibly be argued that such an approach can be combined with keepint the gravitational swing center on one single plane throughout. But it would mean that the hands aren't on the plane except at 3 and 9 o clock. So this way of keeping the swing on a single plane is very different from HK's way where the shaft is pointing at the impact plane line and the hands are on the plane at all times.

Further, HH has positioned himself as a swing teacher with a very pragmatic approach. Adjusting the stroke based on stroke pattern and typical misses instead of building the perfect stroke ground up, so to speak. It will be interesting to see if he is successful with Ray Romano on Golf Channel. There seemed to be some light bulb ignition before they put the series on hold.

Haney's view of plane is the reason Tiger has had such a difficult time in the last 6 years with big misses (mostly to the right).

It is amazing what Tiger could still do to win over that time.

I have no doubt that if Tiger were to work with a TGM instructor, he would have another year like 2000, several of them in fact.

Thank You BerntR. Your explanation is clear. I can understand how many Golfers, using Pivot Controlled Hands on the Elbow Plane can "Feel" like that's occurring, although video demonstrates otherwise.

Thanks again.

Yep,

It probably would take a constant ratio sweep release that starts from the top to keeep the MOI center on plane with a Haney plane. If there's som snappin' going on it has to be a true plane shift. Down and out - as Ian Woosnam used to say (or something like that).

Hank seems like a really decent guy but his geometry is not "better than most". That aint unusual but he really sticks to his own guns on the parallel plane thing and getting the club on the plane of the left arm. Even when presented with a truer picture, or so I hear. He has "lived by his sword" on this , so to speak.

Maintaining a constant Plane Angle but shifting to Higher parallel Planes means that you have lost the Plane Line! The Sweetspot Plane is not pointed at the Plane Line. You have shifted the Sweetspot Plane to a Plane that the ball does not lie on. But hey, the Plane Angle is the same!

I believe that he also teaches a Right Hand Wrist Cock and an accompanying Throw of the same. So the Plane of the Right Wrist Bend , the Right Forearm Flying Wedge is not maintained throughout the shot.

I come not to burry Hank! He'll be OK. Man, I hope he can fix Romano!

You know that the rumours have Sean Foley as the next one! Making some members of our little chat room insiders! In fact there was a cryptic reference about a week ago...........something about Tiger and ground forces or something......I dunno. If its true Sean, while never an A.I. is very familiar with TGM, Tom Tomasello's stuff via Mark Evershead, Plumber and Bennet and Alignment Golf's own Lynn Blake. (And just about anything and everything else you can imagine too for that matter).

I had a series of lessons with Sean several years ago. He introduced me to TGM in an indirect way, so if not for him.........I might not be here. He's a really interesting guy, hope its true.

Backswing: "In an on-plane swing, the clubshaft is above but parallel to the original angle of the clubshaft at address..."

Downswing: "The clubface and the clubshaft should be on a plane that is parallel to but above the original angle of the clubshaft at address, as the arms bring the club down toward impact"


IMHO, he is talking two positions during back and down....

Is Hank Haney's swing philosophy similar to Homer Kelley's Zero Shift? I don't think so...

Is Hank Haney's swing philosophy similar to Homer Kelley's Single shift? Might be...

I think Tiger's biggest problem is not having his Dad around to sort through the mess and get him back to playing the natural athletic swing of his youth. I watched Tiger for an hour on the range last Sept. and he was practicing weird actions.

Watch for Eldrick to turn up on Sean Foley or Mike Abbott's door step . . . he played practice rounds with their respective crews at the Playaz . . . .

I am confused about the plane and parallel planes. I have watched countless swings on video and especially Hogan's swing. At the top of the backswing it looks like Hogan's club was on a plane parallel to the shaft plane at address but above it. The butt of the club is not pointing at the target line.

I understood it as if the club is on the left (leading) arm plane, the clubshaft will point at the target line until it is parallel to the ground and target line (P1). Then as the club continues back, the butt end will point at the target line.

If the club is on the right (rear) arm plane, it will point at the target line until that position of parallel to the target line and parallel to the ground (P1), then as it goes back, the club will point outside the target line and be parallel to the shaft plane but above it.

I hope I didn't confuse everyone but can anyone shed some light on this or opine on it. Thanks

that would get a certain group of people excited.

Hi Scott,

In my opinion, Mr. Haney's parallel planes are outside the box of what Mr. Kelley is teaching us. Left or right side driven, one end of the shaft should always be pointing at the baseline. Am I saying Hank Haney is wrong? Absolutely not. Haney is a wonderful, respected teacher. Simply a different idea on how to get it done. I will respectfully stick with Yoda's interpretation as I have found it to work for me and my students.

Kevin

Thank for the reply Kev, but if I may, I have a follow up question. Is the parallel plane theory in the yellow book? Is it explained but not what Yoda teaches or is it just not in the TGM at all? I am asking becasue I thought that TGM covered everything? If that is the case, the nthis will only bolster my belief that TGM is best thing I can think of in terms of a golf swing.
I am genuinely confused and would apprecaited any direction or input.
Thanks

Scott,

It's not in the book...

An on plane clubshaft through the impact interval is an imperative. The easiest way to be on plane through the impact interval is to be on plane the entire swing, no compensations needed.

There are great players who do not follow this advise, and to try to change them may be fatal. However, making the compensations take lots of time and practice. Compensating for bad habits, as Yoda says you can, but why?

Kevin

1-C GEOMETRY
It’s not the theorems but merely the shapes and lines of Plane Geometry – familiar to all – that are used herein. Most useful are lines and relationships that are flat, parallel, horizontal, vertical, straight, On Plane or centered because their precision can be checked visually – there is no question of degree in such alignments.

Rest assured Scottcuban. Hank Haney's procedure is allowed for and included in TGM. See the quote below, paragraph 2, last sentence.

Keepin mind that for every procedure, there is an intended purpose and unintended consequences. If you adopt a procedure for your swing, and think that the intended purpose is other than it's actual function, then the unintended consequences will probably need compensations to allow it to function to meet the actual function of the component.


The above underline by Daryl.

Excellent post Daryl, and I stand corrected. Mr. Kelley suggests what he feels is optimal, but also works with ideas that are not. It's all there...

Kevin

Double Shift
 

What Hank described a POSITION that parallel and above the shift plane might be exist but his action as described in 10-7-c of the yellow book is easy for reference.

D, It should be pointed out that it is not to be found in 1-L!!!!!!! Per 1-L-18. So it is not a Machine concept. A characteristic of all Geometrically and Mechanically correct golf strokes.

But........there are a lot of weird moves that if mastered it can produce a mechanically sound impact. They may be geometrically complicated though. You wouldnt want to change Furyks action, but you wouldnt want to start a golf school teaching it either. Or switch the world number one over to it, for that matter.

Now there's a good rumor: "Tiger to start working with Furyk's dad on a swing over haul".

Hey KOC how are you?

That looks pretty good, doesnt it? Im kind of surprised.


But when you see the club you get a slightly different picture Im thinking. Parallel planes with the club and the left arm on the Left Shoulder Plane and the whole thing pointed outside the Plane Line. Made possible by an off plane left wrist cock. Literally flat left wrist as opposed to Geometrically flat. Fore right!


http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=127367308 2

OB, thanks, 1-L, we should have looked there first.

1-L-6
The Clubshaft always points at the Plane Line except when they are parallel to each other.

I believe Mr. Haney takes the word "parallel" in a different direction as far as Mr. Kelley's concept goes...

Kevin

Oh ya that is a different meaning to "parallel" for sure, and see 1-L-18. This is key. This is "THE" plane, but it shifts by changing its angle as opposed to finding a new Plane all together, one that the ball doesnt lie on.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NeizRf3JZY

OB,

Fine...just read seldom post.

Frankly speaking...I quit chasing TW.

He closer than ever now, you can do it.

The "mind in the hands"
 

This is my view of 'the' plane for a zero shift motion.

The hands, the #1pressure point's path. With zero #3 accumulator, it is easier to see.

Way too much attention has been spent on what the shaft does. The shaft does what the hands tell it.

So focus on what the hands do!

:golf:

If I were as talented as you guys in describing the optimum TGM situations...
 

here is what I would do...and this is based on being in the top 1% of American Express' sales force for two years in a row...I would send Mr. Woods a registered letter drafted by all of the administrators on this site, and I would chip in $200 each for his family's tickets and smorgasboard meal pass and room (a little MN humor there) and I would invite the guy for a weekend to see what 1-L-6 and the vertical hinge could do for a talented person.

Mr. Woods will never be more approachable and he might appreciate the kind gesture given the idiot journalists and his own weakness!

He would benefit from you guys, moy mucho!

Patrick

Edz,

He is at the elbow plane at address and impact (red line) and at the turned shoulder plane at the end (black line)

That looks like a stock double plane shifter per TGM to me.

Exactly what a waste - HH must have a primitive knowledge of the inclined plane. Was he trying to get Tiger to match his impact shaft line to his setup shaft line? IMHO that would be a power/consistancy leak.

thanks all for the input, I am still pretty confused but thank you for info. I am going to try reading it few times to see if it sinks in.

Don't know.

But this would be stock TGM with level left wrist and right forearm on plane at address and implact. (The flying wedges) And keeping the shaft on the same plane at all times would be the TGM basic pattern with turned shoulder plane and without planeshift.

Whether that produces a power / consistency leak depends amongst other things on how you perfer to time your arms swing in relationship to your pivot turn. With reasonably square sholders and a lot of accumulator #4 release before impact it should work all right. If you like to have more pivot rotation through impact and save the Accumulator #4 a little longer it's a major swing wrecker. At least in my stroke.

Haney wants to see the shaft moving on a plane with a constant plane angle. So a Haney plane shifting is merely a plane dropping than a change of plane angle. A consequence of this philosophy is that a "Haney" golfer will not be thrusting and pulling the club towards the plane line until the very last instance. At least not longitudinally. Most of the time the shaft would point above the plane line.

While Tiger has been struggling with his driver during his time with Hank Haney, his iron striking has improved. And he has wone more than a couple of tournament. So Haney is probably not an idiot although he has a non-TGM philosophy.

Hi Scott. You sort of got threadjacked by everyone. It's not you!
The search function on this site is awesome as you might know. To benefit from this experience, pick a theme that one of our peeps referred to and start researching the heck out of it. Your game will improve and someday, you will be shooting par or better and being gracious to those you do not know because they are suffering golfers as you once were!

Patrick

Hmm? I understand O.B. but that wasn't the question. I suppose then that since Tiger or Hank don't prescribe to the Machine Concept, then they aren't "characteristic of a Geometrically and Mechanically correct golf stroke". So, tell Tiger to give back the money. :laughing9

There is a fundamental problem with 1-L 18 in combination with a plane shift.

Question: How do you change the plane angle from turned shoulder to elbow plane while you at all times drag and drive towards the same plane line?

Answer: You do it by applying additional forces that is way off plane:
a) a PP#2 pressure that is backwards and downwards at the start of the plane shift. And the opposite direction by the end.
b) a torque through the hands that drives the clubhed even further down than the hands, per a) and later stops it from rotating even flatter.

In other words: Steering. There will be two steering components: One that consists of the club as a whole being moved on a curved plane. The second being that the club itself will have to be rotated from one plane angle to the next.

The physicists amongst us could then proceed to argue that, when you try to rotate a rotating object with around 90* angle to the first rotation, you get a coriolis acceleration that works in the 3rd dimension. If it has any real impact it will work towards rotating the plane line on the ground.

Whether you're a fysisist or not: Rotating the swing plane and rotating the club your're swinging with around two different axes for a while - before you stop the plane bending and the secondary club rotation - it is not the easiest thing to do. Not in theory anywway. But that's the implication of 1-L 18 combined with plane shifting.

The Haney plane thing can be made basically steering free. The club itself will have a constant plane angle so you don't need to worry about additional club rotation. If you simply add a vertical component to a swing that would othervise pass the impact zone high above the ball, you can have a basically compensation free stroke. If from mother earth gravity doesn't do the whole vertical part for you, you will have to torque the club head towards the ground as you start lowering your swing plane. If you do it in a certain way you can keep your clubhead on the same plane angle throughout the stroke. Like a frisbee that spins nice and clean as it approaches the ground. But your hands will be above the clubhed plane most of the time and cross to the underside at some point prior to impact.


Of course, all of this is theory. But so is 1-L. There may be physiological reasons that speaks for a certain amount of steering and I don't know whether that will be in favor of TGM plane shift or Haney parallel planes.

thanks Patrick, great suggestion...

The problem isn't with 1-L because 1-L is about Geometrically Oriented Linear Golf. TGM is Hands to Pivot. In this regard, the Shaft always points to the Plane line except when Horizontal to the ground.

The book does help with Pivot Controlled Hands Procedures in some places but for the most part you're on your own.