george knudson swing against a grid
 

If you havent seen this before here is a nice swing and a few thoughts that may sound familiar.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbdbju07IDo

Enjoy.

It always amazes me to see some of these guys have their head go down in the backswing.

Man thats good stuff O.B. ! I hate to sound like a broken record, but I see a lot of the Trolio pivot in that swing!

Kevin

Me too. Trolio studied Hogans Pivot, Knudson studied with Hogan and Homer studied Hogan way way back, so its not a stretch to say they both have what we here would describe as Homer's Hip Slide with a Delayed Turn. A Cleared Right Hip going back and then Cleared again going down via a Hip Slide (its in there twice after all in 12-3-0 points 13 and 24 and I think they are slightly different "clears" maybe, please discuss if you disagree).

What Im noodling these days is whether this second "clear" via the Slide, assuming that is correct, allows the 6-M-1 Downstroke Sequence, feet up, without any Roundhousing? As if the Right Hip is back far enough and slid far enough towards the target that you can 6-M-1 and not get stuck? If you know what I mean.

I also see Knudson taking that Hogan right foot drag to a new extreme. In his later years George was dragging the right foot about a foot or so! I love that move. Hogan did it, Knudson taught it...... to his students up here in T.O. Its not unusual to see some old guys playing up here with that move. A tell tail sign of some time on the range with George. I dont think Hogan ever talked about it, perhaps its another one of his secrets. George sure talked about it. Preached it in fact.

I dont understand this, what is a delayed turn? Is it a pre-turn? My dang big arse right hip is always in the way, on thing that can often help is to push it left a little at set up, kinda braced against the left side.

Greg, you need to spend a little time with YODA, it gets a little confusing, but I'll give it a shot.

From the 6th Edition
First, I prefer to think of it as EDUCATED HANDS lead and power the shoulders which lead and power the hip turn. Same principle, different "feel." Thanks YODA...

What Yoda taught me last summer, and it was HUGE for me, and is for you as well as are very similar, is that even though the educated hands lead and power the backstroke, we need a little bump to the right of the hip with a touch of a hip turn FIRST so the hands can go where they want to. If we don't start with that slight little bump and turn, our hands get directed by the right hip being in the way and no amount of education can help. The hands then take over the backstroke along with The Magic Of The Right Forearm.

Clear as mud? Probably, but I'm trying my friend.

Yoda, Please Help! :)

:golf:

Kevin

Kev,

So if I were to take my setup square to the target, the "bump" would just be a very slight move with my right hip to begin the swing...or is the hip moved in the setup and then the hands take the club back?

Your choice!

Another very good instructor of the Machine teaches setting the hips a little closed at address for hitters.

Yoda taught it to me as a more dynamic move, it actually puts my swing in motion. Greg, your hips could travel a little more on the backstroke, just like me. That's why I feel we are similar, among other things. If you start the swing with this little bump hopefully it will free up your hips a little as it did for me. I don't "feel" this freedom when I set up closed, I need to make it happen.

Kevin

Watch the left knee start the downswing. Of all the things I think he got from Hogan, that is it. Not quite the same dynamics as Schlee, but the same result coming down.

WOW EdZ. I was so focused on watching the hips, that I missed that completely. Great observation!

Thanks,
Kevin

Curious George
 

True Swinger
Pivot controlled Hands
A good reason to quit smoking

He put out a great book and video that these pictures come from. His number one key was a flat left wrist. He also prescribed the pivot as the key to this condition. Sounds familiar huh? His video and book are quite good. Died way too young, chain smoker. He also was renowned as a free spirit on tour. Hogan once chewed him out for having his hair too long. Probably touched his ear. Great swing for somebody from Winnipeg that played five months of golf a year as a kid.

Interesting Drew, I don't want to start another war but Lag Erickson has George as one of his illustrations of being a hitter.

Wow this thing has spawned three big threadjacks (but good ones)

-do the educated hands really lead the backswing, sequentially? In otherwards is the backswing top/down or bottom/up?

-was his obvious knee motion a knee thing or a hip thing?

-was george a true swinger or hitter? (Ill start another thread that sorta kinda addresses that)

-does this mean we're finally back to normal post Tigergate? (I know, thats 4)

Totally agree with ya EdZ. I think that in the era of Knudson he might have added a touch of knee drive to what Hogan might have done as a Hip Slide. Just a theory coming from an old knee driver that'll never get those years back. It was in vogue after all.

Here is an article that I have on file, no mention of knees but it sure looks like there is some additional knee drive in one of those photos. A little extra gravy on Hogan's potatoes maybe?

PS I have a feeling that Yoda would teach this a Hip thing not a knee thing. Which begs another question about 6-M-1. If you Slide the Hips as a first move does this mean you have shortened the Radius? Im thinking no. The left foot is still being loaded, if you will. Preserving the Feet/Up full sequence to the Pivot Train. Course George and Hogan would have started by slammin the left foot down, it being slightly off the ground for longer shots.


http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=126081406 2

No question he is a swinger.

The knee action has to be intentional in his case. If you watch the slow motion sequence, he is well up on the left foot at the end of the backswing, and has fully set the left knee/foot before much of anything else happens coming down.

Try the move - it results in what Schlee called the "World Class Move" - the flattening of the shaft, a bit like what you can see in Ricky Fowler's motion, and Sergio's as well. It also sets the right elbow in the perfect swinger's position, pitch, ready to be pulled on through.

At least in my attempts at this motion, there is a very big difference between a focus on knee action vs. hip action in terms of the amount of lag pressure generated and how well the entire power package is pulled. With a focus on hip action, far more can get off track (round house). The focus on knee action makes the right shoulder move downplane nearly automatically, thanks to the right elbow being pulled into pitch.

By Hip Action do you mean a Slide with a Delayed Turn though? I find it hard to Roundhouse when I do that.


http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=126081818 1

Hula-Hula baby. I can't believe how many swing problems that little bump can fix!

Kevin

To do that you have to move the knee first! :)

"The Secret in the Trunk"
 

Knudson played and taught Balance, Centrifugal Force, Inertia, connecting a Starting position to a Finish Position as well as "giving up control, to get control". I don't ever recall Knudson ever saying that other than the Hands, Arms and Club are moved by the Body (weight transfer and rotation). While we are all entitled to our opinions, that is not Hitting.

"Turning over a new Leif"
 

Is Lag Erickson a real person/name?

Define "real person".

Real name is John Erickson, played a lot of Canadian and Australian golf tours before giving up a lot of years ago.

Played at the same time as Todd Hamilton. He recalls when Todd came back from Japan with a huge metal driver and had gained 40 yards. As far as he was concerned it was the beginning of the end for golf.

I consider him a friend. He is a hugely interesting guy.

Here's a nice story by Irv Lightstone describing several of George's early "meetings" with Hogan.

http://www.fairwaysgolf.ca/article.php?id=95

It's like comparing apples and oranges if comparing John Erickson's version of hitting to the TGM hitting described here. John teaches a pivot driven swing with active firing hands and an inactive right arm through impact - for John, hitting means the firing of the hands, not the forced straightening of the right elbow. He maintains that Knudson and Hogan swung/hit with active hands to release #2 and #3. From my own tinkering with this type of swing, I agree with him.

Jack Nicklaus, "Golf My Way". Fireside Books, 1974.

I think that Jack is saying that he didn't use the muscles in his hands, wrists and forearms to actively "Fire" the Club at the bottom of his swing.

Thats different for sure. An "active hand release" of number 2, is in the book by the way, see the Left Wrist Throw. Although perhaps this isnt what you are referring to.

Didnt Knudson coin the expression "passive hands"? Drewit would know for sure. He certainly used the expression. In my lessons years ago with his George's assistant instructor, Norm Moot, it was all about moving the core which was around the chest area, the inside moving the outside, the pivot controlling the hands, balance, the finish position was key, dragging the right foot, shortish backswing.

Tis the Season
 

I have messed with trying to understand Lag Erickson's point of view. I may be way off but any time there is a firing of the hands is that not the pressure felt by the pressure points in the hands that the pivot is creating? His concept of hitting (I think) is the idea of resisting CF well past impact (the mysterious 5th accumulator...which does NOT meet Homer's qualification of an accumulator) I think you do this by preserving the bend in your right elbow. Straightening the right arm too early causes the clubface to flash closed etc. Perhaps it is the season but I am weary of TGM Wars. Those that take the book literally maintain Homer's ideas as ideal as it relates to the mechanical advantage. It is a pity Lag never came to LBG to spar.

I've read this too about Knudson's passive hands. I've read Lag Erickson's point of view on this which is that firing the hands requires special training for most golfers. Passive hands is easier to master for the average golfer who does not have time to train for this, and perhaps this is who Knudson was targetting in his book. Knudson based a lot of his swing on Hogan who clearly stated that he wished he had 3 right hands - certainly sounds like a non-passive action there. If you fire your hands then you need a very strong pivot post-impact to prevent a hook. Hudson clearly swings hard left and not out to right field, which is the tendancy with the right arm hitting action.
I think the hands can be passive or they can be trained to fire. I don't wish to try to interpret another golfer's training or intentions, so take everything I say with a grain of salt. I think, however, that when you swing on a tighter circle and you fire the hands from the last parallel position before impact, you are ensuring that you have acceleration into impact, and hence lag pressure.

Lag explains this much better than I of course and his posts on the matter can be found on other forums.

I just read Mr. Erickson's comments on Hitting vs. Swinging in reference to Mr. Knudsen...

Mr. Erickson looks at hitting vs. swinging the same way as does MORAD.

Hitting = CP
Swinging = CF

I'm not saying right, wrong, indifferent. Not my place...

I'm here to learn Homer Kelley's version of TGM, and find it confusing when debates are centered around other methods that really don't apply to my copy of The Golfing Machine.

This is THE PLACE to learn and understand Mr. Kelley's work by THE MASTER of it's ideals. If you want to learn others teaching methods there are websites to do so.

Just my opinion.

Kevin

Teddy

It makes sense to me that some pro's who possessed educated hands would teach Pivot to Hands or passive hands to the new golfer. Proper hand motion, swinging the Hands instead of the club head etc was not well enough understood back then or now for that matter. But to keep this train on the Knudson rails, in your opinion, how would Knudson "fire" his hands?

Its an interesting question and Ill tell you why I ask. I remember a friend of mine who had a summer long series of group lessons with George at the National Golf Club just north of Toronto. He was a pretty good golfer and was in with some beginners. By the end of the summer George had them all hitting beautiful , perfect little mid irons with a three quarter swing. They didnt go very far but they were sweet. My friend was somewhat frustrated that the lessons never progressed past this shot. It was a swing that George didnt use himself, even when doing demonstrations for the class and neither did my friend when he was playing for score. He'd bring it out once in a while when he was goofing around. It was a often a 130 yard seven iron floater. George could get most any person hitting it and accurately. Perhaps there was more to be had from George's lessons after many many reps or perhaps there was a missing bridge between Pivot to Hands and educated Hands?

George wrote a beautiful book which is largely about the Pivot. Jack in his book called the hands the "great destroyers". Homers book is about the Hands and their correct usage. Its not a "handsy" method but it is about the Hands. Homer "wrote the book" on Hands.

I don't think that HK was against using the Wrists. He did say that the muscles of the Forearms "Are Available" to uncock the Left Wrist. On the other hand, references about using the procedure are nonexistent in the book.

Also, Jorgensen's study ("The Physics of Golf"), tested the use of active wrists with his double pendulum model and concluded that the procedure reduces Clubhead speed unless a Golfer is Skilled enough to actuate them within 70 milliseconds of Impact. He concludes that if it's possible, it's effectiveness is only marginal and lacks the speed increase of a delayed release procedure.

Nice. We're getting way off topic but nice. There are some references to using the Hands and Wrists "actively" to find them you must combine several of the 10-20 Release Triggers that relate to the Hands or Wrists with the Non Automatic Power Package Releases of 10-24.

Homer listed the 10-20 (RELEASE) TRIGGER TYPES in a manner which corresponded approximately to their Release Point 11-24, Full Sweep, Random Sweep, Snap and Flip. See 10-20-A THE HAND THROW, which could be employed in a Non-Automatic (active) manner for a Full Sweep Release. Or 10-20-E WRIST THROW. Which when done in a 10-24-D Non-Automatic Snap Release manner would produce a very late Snap release point, a smaller pulley wheel (Endless Belt Analogy) for added power.

So Homer's Hands, I guess, arent necessarily "passive" in all of the several trillion effective stroke patterns he catalogued and he and Prof Jorgensons would appear to be in conflict about the effectiveness of an "active wrists release". If I read your quote above correctly. Also Homer does in 10-20-0 suggest the existence of non listed Trigger Types, "X" classifications which might include Lags "firing" hands, maybe? I Dunno.

I only said that HK wasn't against using them. Actually, he only said that they "Are Available". Your Putter "is available" it hit a Tee Shot too.

I'm sure he was referring to scooping the ball out of the cup or some such similar situations. :laughing9