Downswing waggles
 

Friday, I had ten Pole-ies out of 400 Balls.
Then Sat had a hole-in-one, not far, 120 yds with 8 Iron.
The hole-in-one did not seems a big suppries after the
ten polies.

I worked on Downsing waggles. I finally understand that
the arms & club have to stay at the top during the shift.
Only the turn brings the arms down. I don't think that
to many peole understand this. As Yoda says, This May
be the Master Move in Golf. Yoda sure has some insite.

Delivery Man
 

Thanks, Donn, and congrats on your ten 'polies' and hole-in-one!

For readers interested in TGM's Pivot Stroke Delivery, study 6-K-0. Also, the Aiming Point Concept of 6-E-2 (which details delivery of straight-line Downstroke Thrust). Finally, the Delivery Path (of the Hands) Component (7-23) and its Variations (10-23).

Also this from 7-19 (Lag Loading) of the 3rd edition:

Using the Pivot (from the Feet) instead of Arm motion to set up Lag Pressure and Rhythm reduces the risk of losing them by "running out of Right Arm" and gives maximum Extension to the Lever Assembly.

:thumright

Now that is a great post. Thanks Yoda, can't wait to look that up.

Way to go Dkerb

References
 

Lynn, thanks for the references to put the Downswing
Waggles in prospective. My favorite topic on the DVD
is your demonstration of the Downswing Waggles. Everybody
should be required to watch. I have the Club Pro, a top
College player and a student using the concept. The sequence
at the top and start down sure has helped their swing.
Interesting, all thought that one needed to drop the arms and
hands with the shift left.

O.B. Left, thanks for you congradulations.

DKerby, Im thinking you would have to do that if you chose a Plane Angle higher than a TSP. You'd have to drop the Hands at least to a TSP Angle prior to an On Plane turn of shoulders otherwise the shoulders would take the hands and club to far OUT, over top of the Inclined Plane.

Back in the day of super high hands that shift was necessary maybe? Does this make sense? The TSP, the Hip Slide, the Downstroke Waggle all work together so beautifully.

Shift
 

O.B., I am finding that one of the main purposes is
to get the Right Shoulder on plane. If you do not keep
the hands and arms at the top during the shift, the
Right Shoulder does not get on plane. Also the dopping
of the hands encourages the weight to favor the right
side instead of staying on the pivot point. Then you
get a radial downswing instead of longitutional and get
more of an over-the-top move. If on the pivot point,
the pivot/turn pulls the arms down into the ball. Any
driving of the pivot with the feet/knees does not work
unless your shift is completed and weight stays on the left side.
Hogan said that he took the club up on a slot and into
a slot at the top. This is what I am looking for so that the shift, the Right Shoulder, hands and clubshaft
will all be on the same plane for the downswing without
compansations at the top. Other items in downswing waggles
such as extensor action and right hip back are certainly
a part of it. I am going to read and organize to the references
that Yoda metioned and try to improve my plan. As Yoda said,
the downswing waggle may be the "Master Move in Golf". I
believe it to be so. An iteresting point, people who sag
the knees have a hard time saging if the hands/arms say
put at the top during the shift/shuttle. As you mentioned
Homer said that if going to the end, you will need to
come back to the top for the downswing. A good reference
is the butt of the club pointing on the target line.
These are my thoughts for what its worth. Thanks for asking.
Donn

Power Package Delivery
 

The Downstroke Pivot is characterized by On Plane Right Shoulder Turn (toward the Ball) as led by the Hip Turn (motion) and Action (work). This Pivot puts the Right Elbow On Plane, and, therefore, the Right Forearm (and #3 Presssure Point) also On Plane (pointing at the Plane Line).

All this is prelude to Release. That is, the Left Arm overtaking the Right Shoulder Turn; the Right Elbow straightening; the Left Wrist Uncocking; and the Left Hand Rolling. In other words . . .

The Pivot Delivers the Loaded Power Package (including its bent Right Elbow) to Release. Then, the independent motion of the Arms, indeed, the entire Power Package, continues that Delivery from Release (via the straightening of the Right Elbow) to the end of the Follow-through.

:salut:

Thanks Lynn, never thought about the Pivot putting the Right Elbow on Plane before. That would be a very "late hit" with either Pitch or Punch elbow, delayed Release, small pulley wheel, lots of "right arm" left deal, I guess. A firing of #1 prior to the Right Elbow being on Plane being an earlier Release, bigger pulley wheel procedure. "On Plane" for the Right Elbow is late, I think. Isnt it?

It sounds like a TSP with a Slide and a Delayed Hip Turn maybe. This is to my mind one of Homers biggest contributions to a good players game. I have found this procedure to really work. A magic move if you will.

When you talk about the shift are you talking about the hip shift toward the target?

Im still noodling this one over: When does the Right Elbow/Arm get back on plane going down?

Its on plane at Fix, assuming a RFFW. Its on plane at Impact assuming a RFFW. Its not on the Inclined Plane at Top (the plane of the Right Wrist Bend, the RFFW is still intact).

Shift
 

Yes Jerry, the left hip slides parallel to the
target line while hips are still turned. This
sets the right shoulder on plane provided the
hands stay put.

The Crossroads
 

Right you are, Donn.

In the Backstroke, the Right Shoulder Turns 'Flat Back' toward the Inclined Plane. At the Top (Hands Shoulder High), it joins the Hands On Plane. From there, even at the End (Hands beyond Right Shoulder High), it initates their On Plane Acceleration toward the Ball.

But . . .

The Shoulder is servant to the Hip Turn, and the Hands are servant to the Shoulder.

At Start-Down, the Right Hip must 'clear' -- left and inwards as the Shoulder stays back -- and thus pull the Lagging Shoulder Downplane. Only then can the Shoulder direct the Hands and their straight-line Lag Pressure Thrust towards the Ball.

This is the stumbling block few surmount. Almost always, the Right Shoulder turns off (above) the Plane, taking the Hands with it and condemning the golfer to a steep, 'above Plane' Impact and its stifling of the Right Arm drive. Hence the high handicaps that dominate amateur golf.

As always, Educated Hands (and their intent to direct Lag Pressure Thrust toward the Baseline and Ball) are the key.

:salut:

So the "clearing" of the Right Hip in Startdown is a Slide with a Delayed Turn, is that right Lynn? And at the same representing the Hips pull of the Shoulders in the Pivot Train? As opposed to a Hip Turn representing the Hips pulling the Shoulders?

This is a very confusing question. When does this slide take place, is it the period from the top to the end of the backswing which is how I think of when watching Hogan.

Hip Action and the On Plane Right Shoulder
 

The Hips pull the Shoulders Down Plane. The minimal Hip Slide -- just enough to get the Weight to the Left Foot -- allows the Right Shoulder to remain On Plane during the Start Down. Then, in full Strokes, the Hip Turn/Action thrusts the Shoulder Downplane toward the Ball, thus providing the initial Acceleration and Delivery of the Loaded Power Package to Release.

From the Top
 

The Hip Slide precedes the Start Down, the period of Shoulder Acceleration from the Top, i.e., the end of the Backstroke when all Hand Motion has ceased.

Yoda do you include the slide in your Startdown waggles or just start with your weight already left? I fall sometimes fall into the habit of Sliding and Waggling at the same time which cant be good.

Power Loading
 

My Weight moves strongly to the Left Side -- assuming its not there already, e.g., in the Short Strokes -- while my Right Hip remains in its Turned condition. This movement (the Hip Shift that is itself the Weight Shift) Loads the Lag Pressure Point, increases the Downstroke Shoulder Turn Lag (Maximum Trigger Delay of the #4 Accumulator) and initates the Pull of the Arms Downplane.

A sharp Backstroke Turn, a Downstroke Hip Slide only (before the Arm Motion begins) encourages "On Plane" Pivot alignments. So it's -- Turn, Slide, Swing. [Bold emphasis is in the original text.]

-- The Golfing Machine (Third Edition / 3-F-5)

:salut:

Thanks Yoda

Ive learned that in tournament golf, for me anyways, its the Downstroke Shoulder Turn Lag (Maximum Trigger Delay of #4) that is the first thing to go when I get tense. As if the tension builds first in my arm to shoulder connections and so I try to breath and relax in the upper arms and shoulders and then feel the Lag loading at the #4 Pressure Point. Its a good trick when you need a long drive instead of tensing up to give it a whack or if its cold out too, I find.

Homer did say "lag in all of its forms". Its not just that singular #3 pressure point or left hand wrist cock.

this is a very enlightening statement

while my Right Hip remains in its Turned condition

O.B. (or anyone)

Last night at the range I wanted to really feel the PP#3 tracing the plane line and getting the hands forward using the aiming point but it lead to shanks.

I changed up the swing thought to something I had read here about JB Holmes and his right elbow being ahead of the ball at impact. I began to consciously think of having the right elbow almost lead the swinging motion pushing it as far forward as possible, pitch elbow as I understand it.

I had to make sure I did not goat hump so I had room for the elbow.

Results were crazy good. It had an impact on my face into impact as all of a sudden the ball was going super high and I was hitting slight fades (have not done that in 3 years). I have never hit the driver as far as the past 3 range sessions with the improvements with RFT and this change.

Results can often be short term good and I am questioning if this elbow move is a proper procedure pure TGM?

Hey gmbtempe

Yes TGM is all over the Right Elbow position at Release, the Delayed Release, the power it provides, how you need to clear a path for the Right Elbow so it can get all the way there to Pitch or Punch even etc, etc. For sure. Its really interesting to me that your shanks went away too. I tend to shank when I get too "army" and have found I can cure them with a proper 6-M-1 downswing sequence, swinging from the feet so to speak. Shanks with no sense of Lag Pressure or even total "downswing blackout" vs proper sequencing and lag and drag in all its forms. Gmbtempe, Im wondering if in trying to get your Right Elbow all the way to Pitch, you lit a fire under your Pivot? Which got you 6-M-1 ing and back on track.

Which relates in a round about way to the topic at hand the Downswing Waggles (although I think the term is more correctly Startdown Waggles). In an actual golf swing the proper sequence would go feet, knees, hips before the shoulders have their turn taking the arms and hands down. In transition prior to startdown, for full power swings for me anyways the Hips slide with a delayed turn 10-14-B to shift the weight left prior to the hip turn of 6-M-1 which precedes the Right Shoulders move towards the ball 10-13-A. And so in a Downswing Waggle you must either incorporate the Hip Slide or start with your weight already left, then turn the Hips. I can tend to do Downswing Waggle with just a Right Shoulder move which is not quite right, Im thinking. You wouldnt want to practice an incorrect sequence or a shorten radius see 6-M-1. How do you guys do the waggles?

(By way of trying to invigorate this oh so important thread ,Im now going to ask a totally gratuitous question about Ben Hogan which is always a good lost leader, maybe Ill throw the "secret" around too)

In the Shells Wonderful World of Golf demo Ben Hogan maintained that the movement of the lower body was the most important thing in the swing for him. He then went on to demonstrate what he meant with something pretty darn close to a Downswing Waggle or Startdown Waggle or what ever. Now VJ Trolio thinks he left out the Slide with the Delayed Turn (his secret) which we just discussed but otherwise is he talking to us about Startdown, 6-M-1, 6-K, Lag Loading etc? Isnt he? Homers Startdown Waggle, Harvey Penicks Magic Move, Hogan's "most important thing in the golf swing"?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0