plane and baseline
 

If a club is on plane when it points at the base of the inclined plane, when is a clubshaft on plane when it does not point at the target line?

I guess the question is, why would we shift the baseline to the right of the target line?

Inside-Out Impact Vs. Inside-Out Stroke
 

An On Plane Clubshaft -- actually, per 2-F, the Centrifugal Line of Pull from the Sweet Spot to the #3 Pressure Point / right index finger, for which the Clubshaft is a suitable proxy -- always points at the Baseline of the Inclined Plane unless they are parallel (1-L #6).

The only reason to Rotate the normally Square Baseline (10-5-A) to the right, i.e., into a Closed alignment (10-5-E) is to produce -- depending on the Clubface alignment at Separation -- Hooks, Pushes and Pushed Cuts.

The false notion that the Baseline of the Plane must 'shift' to the right during the Downstroke is a holdover from the error in Ben Hogan's Five Lessons (pp. 87-89). It was wrong then, and it is wrong now. The Clubhead Orbit does not shift from a Square Plane Line to a Closed Plane Line. Instead, it continues Down-and-Out on the same Inclined Plane through Impact. With the Ball positioned prior to Low Point -- opposite the Left Shoulder -- this does indeed result in an Inside-Out Impact (Hogan's stated objective). But . . .

It does not result in an Inside-Out Stroke (Hogan's unfortunate explanation). Study 2-J-2.

In fact, in all geometrically-correct Strokes, Impact is always 'Inside-Out', i.e., Downplane through Impact to Low Point (1-L #13 and #14). This is true whether the Plane Line is Square (On-Line Stroke), Open (Outside-In Stroke) or Closed (Inside-Out Stroke).

:salut:

Golf clap . . . .

One reason this can happen is as a compensation for a ball position that is too far back, often caused by a grip that is too strong (turned), or a shoulder alignment that is pointed out to the right. Easy to check in a mirror, or by laying some clubs out to check your alignments.

While quite appropriate- your post meets one of the qualifications for a "fluff post" - less than 10letters and therefore will not count towards your G.O.L.F. watch, that you're expecting when you reach your 4000th post! Bagger please remove it from the running total- that'll put him back to eleven. P.S. Your sister was fantastic!

I assume you think the above is in keeping with your hobby . . . "creating quality?"

I told you she was JUST LIKE A MAN!!!! Hope it didn't hurt. shhhhhhhHEEEEEEE's the best.

Nice. This with a little post Low Point extrapolation also answers the question "When are we swinging left?"

Any perceived references to a trade marked swing methodology is purely coincidental or resides inside the head of the reader solely. Swing Left yes but On Plane, post Low Point when the club head is traveling Forward, Up and In but the Thrust continues towards the Plane Line, Forward , Down and Out to Both Arms Straight. Per 1-L-10.

This is an interesting deal . . . . Thrust of what?

Here's another thing to knaw on a bit . . . if the hands are also swinging in something considered an arc . . . would they not reach their low point PRIOR to the clubhead reaching it's low point? I have found for me anyway that once I figured out the down and out portion I over did it and actually ended up shifting the plane line out. For me now my hands have to work left for the club to stay on plane and keep going out to get the throw out on plane.

Working out the Thrust
 

The Thrust (an Acceleration force) May be Muscular (Right Arm) Force and/or Centrifugal Force (Pivot). Thrust is the strong pressure of one part of a structure against another.


Regarding your Hands reaching their Low Point, it depends on if their is movement of the center (Left Shoulder for a Left Arm Stroke) to get to its Impact Fix location.

Now, that was some good stuff- made me chuckle!:) :salut:

Ill defer to Drewit on the "Thrust of what?". But if the Hands are moving On Plane, Post Low Point, Forward ,Up and In (left if you will) the Thrust IS felt in the Pressure Points and directed straight line Forward, Down and Out towards the Plane Line.

The Swinging Left guys who "cut it" left with their Hands are courting an Off Plane Thrust!

The Left thing is maybe in our terms described as the Rythm of Angled Hinge Action. The delayed overtaking of the Hands by the Clubhead associated with the shorter clubhead travel of Angled Hinge Action. Perhaps this is what those Swinging Left players are really feeling though they describe it as a leftward move of the hands.

You can find pictures of Trevino , often , or Hogan occasionally doing this Angled Hinge Action or swinging left but its not "The Way". Its merely "A Way" and a way that if not Aligned to the Plane is another form of position golf. You cant just say "cut" your hands hard to the left and expect them to be Aligned. The Plane still rules. Geometrically Oriented Linear Force. "Left", could mean anything. Homer would ask "left yes, but how much and why?" Its Plane Angle dependent geometrically and Hinge Action dependent in feeling.

Swinging Left: Fact or Fiction?

Infamous Hogan Swing-Left Picture:


Is He Swinging Left or is He Swinging On-Plane (Elbow Plane) after Impact?

Staying On-Plane after Impact requires the Pivot to keep Turning Left for Any Swing Plane employed. Otherwise, if the Hips Slow, or Stop, the Hands will Rise off-Plane.

His often "High Hands" Finish is a sign of his Pivot Motion continuing to lead then abruptly slowed, and just as often, "Low Hands" Finish is a sign of the Hands overtaking the Pivot.

Ignore the Lines:


Just another thought: I wonder if golfers stop their Pivots in an unconscious effort to allow the Hands to travel towards the Target with the mistaken notion of a baseball or basketball throw? Steering.

IMHO, post of the day/month/year. This dismisses a lot of "POP" teaching thoeries. :laughing9

Great work!

Kevin

In God We Trust...With Homer We Thrust
 

Check out 2-M-1. Also, keep in mind that Thrust of the Clubhead is crossline, but motion is online.

Id say post of a life time. It cant be topped. In fact you can stop posting now D.

Please.

OK best post from Today at 7:32. Hows that?

Crossline for Arc of Approach people too?

What about 1-L-10 .......Power Package driven by an on plane force (towards the plane line).

Thanks

Hmm? I wonder what that On Plane Force might be? What possible force is there immediately behind the Power Package that might Drive it Down Plane?

Building an Arc
 

Arc of Approach is the motion, the delivery line of the clubhead and its geometric basis is the Plane Line.
Actually, 1-L-10 reads as follows: The Lever Assembly must be driven "Through" Impact by an On Plane force (moving toward the Plane Line).

So the Delivery Line is On Plane for the Swinger , Arc of Approach, the motion but the Thrust is crossline? Or are you saying the Hitters Thrust is crossline, Angle of Approach? That I get. Or are you talking divergent vectors or something?

I am such a stupid.

Apples, Oranges and Fruit Salad
 

Thrust is Physics. Example, think of a Straight Line Delivery Path of the Hands which extends beyond the Plane line, but the motion, Geometry, as it goes around the pulley of the Endless Belt creates an Arc of Approach that is on line.

Monitor your Plane Line or your Arc of Approach and you are monitor Geometry, but monitor Your Delivery Path and you monitor both, because the Thrust is also on Plane.

Monitoring the Plane Line or Arc of Approach being Tracing, Geometry. Monitoring Delivery Path of the Hands, Thrust, Aiming Point, Physics. Is that what you mean? Lynns tracing vs throwing a stone, straight line at the aiming point. Both achieving the same Delivery Line of the clubhead.

Im still confused about Thrust though. If it is on plane , straight line towards the Aiming Point for Arc of Approach, is it "cross line" in that it passes the plane line, or just points at the plane line? Words fail me again.

I'd submit that cross line TO POINT . . Assuming the hands are leading the clubhead . . .and they travel in an arc they are going to be working back up and in on plane while the club is still working down out and forward . . .

Look a the pic D posted . . . Hogan's hands have "disappeared" from the pic and hidden by his body but the club is still "out" . . . Hogan "planed" the club better than anybody ever has IMO. Beautiful stuff . . . keep in mind he hit all 18 greens and 14 fairways in that Shell deal.

I saw the code "MO" but I'm unsure what you want me to dooo? Please explain how you have determined that Hogan "planed" the club better than anybody ever has - Oh ya! it was the accident or the putting- gotcha!

I agree. Hogan did keep the shaft on plane long after Impact. It's so good, I'll bet his Right Forearm is on-plane also. If someone has a picture of Hogan from in front, from the Target side looking at the Golfer, we may see this to be true.

How can one end of the club be moving up when the other is moving down? Do you mean the Thurst is down, out forward?

I tend to see it the same way, given a couple assumptions:
- left wrist remains flat. I think bending/arching may mess up the geometry
- left wrist returns to vertical at impact. I'm not sure of the geometry if the left wrist is still turned at "low point", then rolled/hinged afterwards
And probably all of your discussions are predicated on a "properly" executed stroke so the above point may not be relevant

But I'm not sure of the geometry as the left wrist moves from level to uncocked after impact. ie does the primary lever actually lengthen after impact? if yes, then maybe, just maybe, one end of the club can move down as the other end moves up.

Then again, I really don't know what I'm talking about. :)

3putt

Youve got lots in common with the rest of then 3putt. None of us non pros really know what we're talking about. We are all just searchers along the line of compression.

All of this is the antithesis of Steering the face square to the target and hitting Up, which begets a bending left wrist. In an similar manner the flat left wrist is also a byproduct but of correctly aligned geometrical force. If we keep thrusting Down , Out and Forward post low point, though our hands and clubhead are traveling Up, In and Forward.......good things happen. Getting to both arms straight , Follow Through is so key.

Lynn has said that most of us are missing the Down and since we are on an inclined plane therefor the associated Out.

Ive been wondering about going from level to fully uncocked too and the implications to the plane angle. Im currently thinking of it as being an on plane uncocking of #2, a decrease in the Accumulator #3 Angle rather than a plane angle shift. That the Hands and the On Plane Right Arm ensure the plane angle is maintained via adjustments to the Pivot and the #3 Angle. Hands to Pivot.

From the glossary: The G.O.L.F. definition of the PIvot is "A multiple universal-joint assembly between the Stationary Head and the Stationary Feet holding the Clubshaft "On Plane" by positioning and adjusting the Lever Assembly, through the #3 Accumulator, as directed by the right forearm."

So when our esteemed friend Bucket makes the assertion that Hogan held his Plane Angle through Impact better than anyone else, he to mind anyways, is suggesting that his Hands are creating this situation but via adjustments to the Pivot and therefore the #3 Angle. Mr Hogan had one heck of a practical PIvot. Homer wrote the book on it, de coded it.

No no no.

When he calls you it will be something like "Curly to Moe, Curly to Moe, come in Moe, whats your twenty?"

Ps Notice how Curly and Larry are pointing in different directions. Those are divergent vectors in full display there.


http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=125640563 6

This isn't the most accurate illustration but I think it may support what Bucket's claim.

The Clubhead is at Impact Location and is continuing downward to Lowpoint while the Hands have already began moving Up and In On-Plane.

There is more to this. Please notice that Hogans Right Arm is Bent at Impact Location. Thrust (Acceleration) will remain Downplane until his Right Elbow Straightens. Therefore, Thrust continues Downplane as the Hands are moving Up and In On-Plane.

Thrust continues after Impact and Separation to Both Arms Straight. Thrust continues even though the Ball is gone.

I see what you mean now. Would this only be possible with a bowed left wrist? A bowed left wrist at impact and then some (albeit horizontal) lever extension as it flattens. Is this what you mean? This is "a way" of doing things. Not necessarily "the way" as some of this is derived from Hogans grip type for instance. A little bit of insurance against Throwaway in his left wrist.

For all of us though. Per 1-L-15 The club starts up and in after "Low Point", but the Thrust continues Down Plane during the Follow Through.

So no active thrust or swinging of the hands to the left or where ever. No real actual "cutting" left with the hands, though they do move Up and In (left). You wont look like Hogan if you do that. Hogan got there with his Pivot Im thinking, under the direction of his Hands.

Agreed on the thrust thing and both arms straight at Follow Through. Like totally.

Here is the photo you requested. This is slightly past Follow Through, both arms straight. His left arm is just starting to bend but look at those wedges! Still in tact. What hinge is that? Angled maybe like he is trying to not hit the cameraman with the ball maybe. Disregard the foot line, is he pointing at the plane line? Has he bent it to the right around the cameraman maybe?

We'll never know i guess. You'd need to know what lens the cameraman was using. Wide angle lenses causing parallel lines to converge more in appearance.



http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/forum/a...d=125641345 8

Excellent Picture. No throwaway in that swing. Angled Hinge.

This pretty much illustrates my point . . . if the hands are leading the clubhead then they are going to reach their lowest point prior to the club . . . assuming the hands and club inscribe something close to a circular type motion . . . of course we have the radius expanding . . . but I think the hands start moving left for the club to continue down and out on plane . . . #3 goes . . . this may be more prevalent the flatter the plane but . . . in my mind this has to happen if the clubhead is lagging the hands. Could be wrong though . . .

Kinda like the rock string dealie . . . the rock flies off at right angles to the radius but the radius continues it circular motion . . . but the rock flies out linear . . . so all the force in a circular motion is linear it direction is the variable that constantly changes . . . so the question would be is the thrust "just there" do to moving the club in a circle on plane or do YOU create the thrust? To me if you keep moving the hands circular the linear throw out happens . . . in swinging anyway.

Thrust - Acceleration, is created by CF or by Right Arm Straightening by using Triceps muscle. The Force is always down-Plane. Down-Plane means "On-Plane away-from-you". Thrust - Acceleration occurs in a straight Line. The Pivot adds circular motion.

If you move the hands then yes, throwout is inevitable. But, the only way to move your hands is by straightening the Right Arm. During the Downswing, the hands and body are moving together. The hands are relocating and technically moving, but throwout doesn't occur until the Left arm moves away from the chest (same as Right Arm Straightening).

Release begins at the moment when the Right Arm Begins to Straighten.

I'm having difficulty understanding why CF is created with Right Arm straightening. I know that when acc1 is released, the club does move away from the center but I don't think that it applies a CF to it without other components added to the mix

You're right. For a Swinger, the Left Arm moves away from the chest when Pivot Acceleration subsides.

So for a hitter, are you saying cf is created with acc1?

Sorry, that must be a poorly written post. Accumulator #1 Thrusting (accelerating) overrides CF.

That's what I thought. Thanks D

For the pure Swinger that chooses to use only CF, as an option, the left arm "blasts off" the chest as part of the Pivot Train, sequencing deal when the shoulders slow. The period of Arm Acceleration. As the Left Arm moves away from the chest, #4 firing, #1 the right arm must also straighten, but passively , not actively as a Hitters would. CF induced #4 firing.

Both Swingers and Hitters are said to be always "Driving", Thrusting but for the Swinger it is a structured, via Extensor Action, CF induced and passive application of Thrust.

This is a great question.

Guys Im thinking that Homer is on record as saying that the Swinger can learn a lot about the proper Impact Alignments from trying Hitting. I believe that the Swinger can learn a lot about the direction of Thrust from Hitting as well.

Lynn has said that he , when swinging, goes back and forth between thinking about Plane Line Tracing and the On Plane Application of Thrust at the Aiming Point. They both have the same Hand Path, are geometric equals but with different intentions. One merely tracing the Base Line with the right forearm and a frozen right wrist , the other similar to throwing a rock, say, from Top at the Aiming Point.

Learning to Thrust will add a lot of zip to the ball, its the geometric correction to Steering, Hitting UP etc. So Swingers Thrust , Straight Line and Down and Out but passively via their Pivot induced CF. Im still wondering about the Swingers Non Automatic Wrist Throw, Trigger. Would that be an Active form of Thrust? Or just lever Extension? My head hurts.

See photos of Diane in 10-19 or 10-20 and take a look at the hard to see little black arrow that points at the ball.