#3 and right arm flying wedge
 

... another #3 question.

Can you properly use accumulator 3 and hold the right arm flying wedge? I'm assuming it would depend on the pattern and when its okay to lose the wedge.

If the pattern called for max delay of the RAFW, can you even use #3?

Id say:

-the right forearm flying wedge stays intact throughout the swing.
-there is no delay of the RFFW as it is not a power accumulator but rather a structural alignment.

I think the goal is to maintain the RFFW but as we have all seen with post impact pictures, the bend in the right wrist has disappeared.

With an aggressive acc3, throwout action of this right wrist bend is bound to happen.

I agree that the right wrist bend (wrist extension) is not an accumulator but we can see with swings like VJ and Phil that the bottom wrist bend is moving quickly towards a flat condition... meaning that the wrist is flexing towards the palm of the hand.

If the goal is to maintain a RFFW, does acc3 have to be released only to a certain degree? (maybe thats a misleading way to put it... )

I'm not sure that it's not an Accumulator. Flattening the Right Wrist at Impact meets the Definition of an Accumulator.


When the Pros Flatten the Right Wrist (Driver Tee Shots), they are timing the motion with Impact to bring about as much Clubhead Velocity as they can Muster without Over-swinging. They must "Time" the action because there is no automatic Trigger to Flatten the Right Wrist. It certainly adds Clubhead Speed (at the Expense of Clubface Control).

What we call throwaway, they call Accumulator.

I played that way on Sunday. It added 15 yards to all clubs except for wedges. I missed 16 greens. My inside Right Forearm muscles hurt like hell on Monday and Tuesday. I'm not doing that again. (Well, maybe off the Tee :) I only missed two Fairways)

The comparison that I would make is that provides a Three Barrel Stroke Distance. The Ball travels farther than my normal Two Barrel Stroke but no Farther than my Three Barrel Stroke (When I can do it). BUT, it's no-where as accurate as my Three Barrel Stroke. With my normal two or three barrel stroke, I would hit 16 greens; not miss them.

I don't think that you can pick up a Club, have Yoda walk you through the Alignments for a Three Barrel Stroke, and you can walk away with a Three Barrel Stroke for life. I wish it were that Simple. It takes a lot of Practice and Playing and more than most Golfers are willing or able to dedicate. It requires enormous Precision for a Three Barrel Stroke to out-perform a good Two Barrel Stroke. But, the reward is distance and control. A well performing Three Barrel Stroke is probably Scratch Golf on just about any Golf Course you can Play.

The structure of the flying wedges says intact. The 'power package'.

The entire power package is rotated as a unit, so done properly, you can release fully and never flatten the right wrist. That is far, far better than what the 'seems as if' is, for even pga tour players.

There is no power in flattening the right wrist. Ever. By doing so you shorten your lever from around 12-13 feet to about 4-6 feet and remove a lot of mass from your available force at impact. Speed is important, but so is mass when creating force.

That should have been in the Book. I couldn't agree more.


I don't Know Ed. That's my normal belief but last Sunday I was a little Surprised myself when Flattening the Right Wrist added Yardage. It's more an Uncocking and Flattening simultaneously of the Right Wrist. Ya gotta cock the Right Wrist too.

cock the right wrist? :naughty:

You can gain speed, but you give up mass (and control). You won't reach your maximum potential force throwing the right wrist (controled throw away).

When you hit a good one, do you feel impact all the way through your body down to your feet? You should feel pressure in your right instep, and your #3 PP.

It does meet the definition of an acc... but when used can diminish ideal impact alignments. It is also throwaway, which kills impact conditions, but is defined as something that reduces speed.

Can it really reduce speed if released an amount not reaching a flat right wrist?

And if the RFFW was held past seperation. has this club come up short of its full potential?

I agree. But I think that the Pros do it intentionally.

I completely agree.

Im thinking that the unbending of the right wrist doesnt undo the RFFW. Maybe it isnt as pointy a "wedge" anymore as the right arm and club become more inline but the right forearm and club can remain on the same plane...........the plane of the right hand bend. What is lost is the LAFW if the clubhead passes the hands.

The right wrist for sure flattens and the left wrist bends during the FINISH swivel (EDIT) on full power shots as CF has it way with alignments but most really good golfers quickly re establish both of the flying wedges at FINISH (EDIT).

Phil and VJ are swingers who allow all but the #3 pressure point on their right hands to drop off the grip in an effort to avoid a right hand powered over swivel. In so doing the right hand can be seen to bend abruptly but it isnt really on the grip anyways.

The right wrist bend and unbend would be a numbered power accumulator if it wasn't at the expense of the Flat Left Wrist........ geometry over ruling physics in this case. You dont really need the power the right wrist could supply anyways. Radial that it is.

Nice post. The RFFW does lose the amount of wedge but you're right... the right arm moves Towards an inline condition with the shaft but never gets there. I guess that's where the loss of the RFFW meets the loss of the LAFW.

I think VJ and Phil use the 3pp as a point of thrust and as a result of this final throw of the club (intentional for sure!), they lose the 1pp.

Not sure I follow you here. Is this a right arm throw or left hand throw or? I hope you dont mean active right hand unbending as a throw, golfs deadliest move.

its all about overtaking.
 

Right hand unbending is really a LAFW deal, as it creates horizontal left wrist motion, arching or bending that is death to lag and compression. Normally a poor golfers way of allowing the clubhead to overtake the hands, as it must.

The solution being to roll the flat left wrist through impact.......overtaking without bending! The move that Yoda says "will take you immediately to the next level". "Why? Because thats where The Golfing Machine LIVES , thats why" My favourite Yoda quote and video of all time.

Interestingly though there are numerous pro's , teachers even that in an effort to fight the overswivel subscribe to a sort of hold off move for even the longest of shots. They are afraid of unbridled overtaking and so avoid it. If only they knew how to release instead of trying to avoid it all together! Aligned, rolling, flat left wrist release as opposed to overswivel, left wrist bending or at the opposite extreme hold offs.

So Slice with appologies to one of our fellow countrymen, the right hand doesnt stay fully bent at all times, there is overtaking, a release swivel and the grip end does point down the line in follow through, not behind you or what ever. To have it any other way would be to hold it off, good sometimes, when needed but not all the time. You cant drive it like that or hit long irons like that and play with the best. George didnt do that, Moe didnt do it either. It aint really The Canadian Move or whatever.

So Im inclined to think that the clubs full potential is being achieved with a bent right wrist, flat left wrist at impact but only if the entire power package is in the process of free but "aligned rolling" that will for full power shots see the right wrist flatten for a brief moment during the release swivel.

My third lesson with Yoda. I get to the swamp early to practice some chipping and alignments. Readying myself for the teachers eye I dutifully get to both arms straight with a flat left , bent right wrist combo, the left hand and club face remaining perpendicular to the basic plane of my choice. Horizontal , vertical, angled. I had it down. Yoda drives past the chipping green in his red Jaguar waiving. Getting out of his car he points at me and slaps his firm left hand in approval of my display of alignments. All is good right? Ill chip with him blissfully for hours right? Wrong.

"Follow me" says Lynn and we head over to a split rail fence that he wants me to hit over with little 10 foot, sky high flops from total motion. Totally undoing the somewhat rigid set of wrists I had achieved over a winters worth of practice at an indoor dome in Canada. I struggled badly until I let go of the tension , got more rope handle ish and most importantly added a Throw. Some of the balls I hit may never be found in the woods of Marietta.

The lesson, I think, was that impact alignments are not ideally achieved via tension. Golf is a motion, hitting or swinging. A journey from Address to Top to Finish. Yoda was looking for me to achieve my impact hands dynamically, freely while on the way through the three stations. The right hand is not held in a bent position in a wooden manner, nor is it fired.

The Finish Swivel is the bridge between Follow Through and Finish and apparently somewhat of an acid test for a golfers total motion. You start in Basic, move to Acquired but then you have to deal with the Release Swivel and all it implies to what proceeded it.......you cant pass this test without freedom of movement in your hands. The right wrist does flatten but freely, briefly, on its own as opposed to actively. (Unless you are doing it for a specific short shot say with intentional throwaway a 10-3-J type flop shot say that we see the pros doing around the green on tv. But that was like lesson 7 with Yoda)


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I think that its a pp3/right hand throw of the clubhead where the clubface is somewhat regulated with left forearm rotation.

vj, phil, couples... all these guys throw pp3 and their bottom hand comes off the club and the left hand is left to regulate the hinge action - or lack of because the CLUB has some uncontrollable momentum

How can the right elbow ever be on plane when the right shoulder and right forefinger are on plane ? The right elbow is bent most of the time so how can it be on plane ? When I watch my right elbow it never appears to be on plane, nor can I get it (or the right forearm) on plane. I have the Alignment Golf DVD but the claims of right forearm on plane has me totally confused. Please help.

Welcome to the forum tm.

I believe you might be thinking about Impact perhaps. The "on plane right shoulder" concept describes an Alignment associated with the beginning of the downswing, "Startdown". Basically, after you have bumped to the left in some manner assuming a full swing, your right shoulder (as opposed to your hands or arms) is the first component to "accelerate" and take the entire Power Package down plane towards the ball. The "period of shoulder acceleration".

When viewed from down the line, the angle from the ball to the right shoulder at Top is referred to as the "Turned Shoulder Plane". So the right shoulder is on this plane already by definition. Get the left arm on this plane too and where the right shoulder goes so goes the rest of it, ideally down towards the ball as opposed to out and over. Practicing this with "Start down waggles" is a great, great drill.

Hit the search function with some of these key words for more and most likely better information.

There is big typo in the above. I wrote "Get the left arm on this plane....." when I meant to write "get the left palm on this plane......." Sorry, Tm. Hope you havent hurt yourself tying to contort yourself into this alignment.

TM upon reviewing all of this again, I had another thought as to the source of the confusion. That is that the "plane" of the Right Forearm Flying Wedge (the plane of the Right Wrist Bend. See 6-B-0-1, Flying Wedges) is not one and the same as the "Inclined Plane". The RFFW will normally lay on the Inclined Plane through the ball, but doesnt do so elsewhere in the swing. The plane of the RFFW is ideally maintained throughout the entire swing.

In addition while the Right Shoulder may move down the Inclined Plane in Startdown it does not stay on the Inclined Plane. In short there a bunch of different "planes".

This is one heck of a confusing welcome, I bet. But the fog does lift, or so Im told :)

When you bump to the left, does this move drop the right elbow in front of the right hip and then the right shoulder goes down plane?

The solution being to roll the flat left wrist through impact.......overtaking without bending! The move that Yoda says "will take you immediately to the next level". "Why? Because thats where The Golfing Machine LIVES , thats why" My favourite Yoda quote and video of all time.

Having a lot of trouble with this move, anybody have any suggestions on how to do this? My left elbow always wants to chicken wing.

Far be it from to say we are getting way off topic but.....

To answer quickly, assuming you do bump, the hips bump left with a delayed hip turn, then the right shoulder moves down plane.

when does the right elbow fall in front of the hip?

Hey Jerry

That depends on the shot at hand and personal preference. The right elbow in putting will cross at a different time than when driving. A high shot will have an earlier release point. But I know you are probably referring to a driver, maximum release delay so......... In front of the hip, assumes Pitch Elbow, a swingers move, like say Ben Hogan. His elbow was in front of his hip at about his Release point or when the club was about parallel to the ground.

If the question really is "how does the elbow got there?" Then we are dealing with a really big topic. A life long quest perhaps, which relates, I think to 6-M-1 The Downstroke Sequence and The Gear Train 6-C-0. for instance.

In brief the Accumulators release sequence for the swinger would normally be 4,2,3. The Gear Train would have the feet pull the knees , the knees pull the hips, the hips pull the shoulders , the shoulders pull the arms, the arms pull the hands, the hands pull the club. All under the direction of the brain and its sensory outpost the hands, "Hands to Pivot".

So the Pivot acts as a Gear Train that effectively extends the radius of the Stroke to the Feet. 6-C-0. To break the sequential chain at any one point is to shorten the radius from ball to that break point. Shortening the Radius with a corresponding loss of power and precision. Remember that it is power and precision that Yoda offers to his students......this may be what he is referring to. The pull of the golf strokes components into a straight line via Centrifugal Force. A coordinated, balanced and sequenced use of the whole body for the full power swing. Lagging components accelerating past their slowing leading components sequentially.


The short answer would be to first research and then do some "Downstroke Waggles" in front of mirror with this picture in mind. Bump left then take your Right Shoulder down plane towards the ball, with the butt end of the shaft pointing at the Base Line. Take things all the way down to where the right elbow crosses in front of your hip and you'll look like a pro with lots of bent right arm left. A super late release.

This photo really shows off some of Homers biggest insights. It might be my favourite Hogan photo. You can see the sequence of his Startdown. Look at his still cleared right hip, even though it must have pulled the shoulders to some degree, Gear Train. To do this the right hip must have been turned even further back in Startup. Another nail in the coffin of X factor, which would see a frozen right hip break in the Radius at the hips in addition to creating a Round Housing situation with a right elbow , right hip conflict, collision course.

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This I think this is exactly where my progression is at or stalled. I have questions as of late ties into this. So for swinging, is there any right arm or PP#3 possibly at or through impact? It feels right for hitting to me, but for swinging to achieve bent right wrist and w/ the intention of not releasing accumlator #1 right arm driving until after impact feels like holding on to me? Is swinging solely dependant upon CF to take the clubhead through to finish swivel as would be a freed motion as you stated? I just cant see how you can swing and stress shaft at impact w/ allowing such freedom of movement. If i do that i feel I am trying to lift the ball which seems counter intuitive to the concept of 3D impact. I hope this made some sense. The fog is thick...

Thank You very much.

The right arm provides structure at the very least. Homer said something like "the mystery of golf fades away when right arm participation is understood". Sorry dont have book with me right now to get this right.

Not sure what you mean exactly when you refer to PP#3. To my mind PP#3 senses Lag and Lag should be present in all strokes unless you are intentionally throwing lag away. Even then it is there and it Throw Away is monitored, timed, regulated. If Lag is the secret to golf, its associated Pressure Point is monitored for all shots.



Hmm. Sounds like holding on too. Or perhaps steering. Remember even when Swinging, #1 is released, but passively as opposed to actively. You sound very right side oriented, that is good thing I believe, Hitting or Swinging. I like right handed people playing right handed golf.

No. Swinging that is solely dependent upon CF is referred to as "Pure" Swinging. Manipulated Hand Swinging is a slight over riding of CF and therefore not "solely" dependent upon CF. I was describing an intentional throwaway type shot that Yoda was trying to teach me, a 10-J-3 type shot where the left arm pauses and the clubhead scoots past the hands creating a tremendous amount of club face layback through the shot. Very similar to your observations above but by design. Basically the diametric opposite of an axe handle, hitting procedure that takes things to both arms straight in a wooden fashion. Yoda was giving me an educated hands exam, I think, that covered both ends of the spectrum. Axe Handle vs Rope Handle. Both Arms Straight at Follow Through vs Active Throwaway during the impact interval.

It sounds to me like you are describing a Pure Swinging procedure that sees the clubhead pass the hands prior to Follow Through (edit), both arms straight. The solution often being to add some further acceleration to the Power Package via the Pivot or a Throw Out Action of some kind so that the clubhead doesnt pass the Hands until after Follow Through. Its an Overtaking Timing thing. Best fixed by maintaining the rate of acceleration of the Power Package which will delay the overtaking rather than trying to hold off the overtaking.

Question for those in the know. Can you employ a Throw and still be Pure Swinging? Im thinking no, but might be wrong. Sasq, we all share the Fog, it isnt yours or mine but ours.

The reason these guys do it is because most are taught to use left arm delivery lines which goes with a flip release. They have no other choice but to "flatten the right wrist" quickly because that is what goes with there delivery line. They would spray it everywhere if they tried anything else.

Flip release and Pressure Point #1
 

Seems to me that if you use a flip release or flatten
the right wrist that you loose pressure point #1
and therefor loose much the use of the #1 accumulator
(the right arm). Can you use the right arm, swinging or
hitting without the #1 pressure point?

Believe it or not you can.

You can use the #3 pressure point for Extensor Action which has the effect of not only pulling the inert left arm straight but also pushing and extending the club shaft.
You do have to guard against loss of the right wrist bend.
Using Extensor Action with PP#3 alone to power a hitting stroke feels like using a tight right forefinger/thumb grip.

I don't believe that flattening the right wrist would relieve PP#1 otherwise as you're pushing the base of the palm against the left thumb.

A Flip release in TGM (10-24-F) does not mean bending the left wrist. It's a different definition of the term.
It's the pivot-controlled hands swinging procedure.

Flattening the right wrist destroys the Flying Wedges, the accumulator #3 control, the hinge action and thus the Rhythm of the stroke, makes clubface control erratic and results in power leakage.

Information
 

LOREN, Thanks for the information and reference for
the Flip Release. Guess I will have to do some more
study on the Flip Release. I have been working on
the #1 pressure point. When I do not feel the
#1 Pressure Point I am not really using the Right Arm and Elbow.
When I see V.J. Sing I wonder about his using the
the #1 pressure point.

V.J.? What does he know? Didn't study The Golfing Machine.
That's why he has to practice so much.

A slight misstatement.

He didn't say roll the wrist through impact. He's talking about swiveling the left forearm between follow-through (both arms straight with clubhead still below the hands pointing at the plane line) and Finish when the clubhead finally overtakes the hands. It lays the back of the left wrist flat on the plane angle. And the key is that you have to prepare for that no later than Top in the backswing/startdown. Being able to do it is an important indicator of the health of the stroke. Lynn calls it the "bulletproof vest for the links." He says "It's totally natural, you're just not doin' it."

From impact to follow-through is hinge action, which is keeping the left wrist perpendicular to one of three planes. No actual hand motion occurs. It feels like a full roll, no roll or reverse roll, but no motion actually occurs except in vertical hinging which requires a reverse forearm swivel.

Take a club turned wrong way 'round, or a dowel in the left hand gripped down several inches, at the normal angle, slowly turn the wrist onto the plane angle in the backswing, roll it to vertical at impact, and swivel the left forearm to lay the flat left wrist on the plane angle into Finish, which is after the hinge action between impact and follow-through. A baton twirler's motion.
Keep speeding it up until it becomes one smooth flowing motion, backswing through finish, maintaining the flat left wrist, and it's fairly whistling beyond the impact location. The pivot should support that motion. What's it feel like? Absorb the feel.

The left elbow will point down. That's the same as Jimmy Ballard's advice to keep the left elbow pointed down at all times, which is a little less precise.

Nice save thank you. Hinge through impact, swivel from Follow Through to Finish.

Extensor Action Forever
 

A slight correction to a previous post.
Extensor action is never released until the left arm folds in follow-through.
It is established at impact fix using either PP#1 or PP#3.
It is common to lose it, so practice by sticking something in there and swinging without losing it.
Lynn likes a penny. I've heard of people using a blade of grass.
Passive right arm through impact does not mean going along for the ride. It means non-accelerating force.
Extensor action non-accelerating force keeps the right arm under control from start to finish, extends the left arm, promotes the correct closing rate of the clubface and provides support for passive lag pressure associated with wrist cock.
I find it invaluable in crisp chipping and important in push elbow stroke putting as well.