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Shoulder Turn Throw versus the Wrist Throw
It would be interesting to hear Yoda's comparison and in-depth explanation of the Shoulder Turn Throw (10-20-C) versus the Wrist Throw (10-20-E). How each is execute per the Swinging pattern. They're also listed as a combination trigger? Interesting.
:golf: DG |
I am also very interested to learn about the difference!
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Warning: Vapid Post Ahead.
Sorry, I couldn't wait for Yoda.
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Wow. This is TGM. Digging deep into theory and then being able to apply the procedures in your G.O.L.F. swing. Dinner conversation. The Shoulder Turn Throw, throws the Primary Lever (or the Left Arm), while the Wrist Throw is thrown and is a procedure to allow a snap release of the Secondary Lever in a Sequenced Release. © Normally, the Shoulder Turn Throw and Wrist Throw are mutually exclusive. Sweep vs. Snap Release. Shoulder Turn Throws, when Thrown from the Top, produce a Sweep Release. The Power Package unfolds during the Downstroke because the initial Pivot Acceleration is not maintained so the Left Arm moves away from the chest immediately following the Start of the Downstroke. It should be used when a No Wrist Cock Stroke is used. Example: Swingers Long Chip or Level Wrist Pitch Shot needs a Shoulder Turn Throw to Drive the #4 Accumulator to Power the Swing. You need to acquire the “Hogan” tension in the Pivot (rubber bands – Hip Action) so that when the Left Heel is lowered to the ground (quickly lowered) it will Throw the Shoulders, which pulls the Primary Lever. This Throw, truly frees the Hands for Finesse control for these shots. Whenever you stand Open-Square-Square to the Target to build enough X Factor so that Hip Action can power the Primary Lever, you are using the Shoulder Throw Procedure. If you use the Shoulder Throw Exclusively on a Full Stroke Shot, and Throw from the Top, then you’ll notice about a fifty-yard loss of distance off the Tee. Wrist Throw. The Wrist Throw does not throw anything but is itself Thrown. With a Stationary Head, the Right Hand is Thrown passed the Line of Sight to the Ball while remaining Palm up. The Head must stay back in the Center of your stance and you must allow the hands to move forward of your head (Power Package moved by the pivot). Super-Pitched Elbow because the Right Elbow is almost at your Belt Buckle for you to maintain a Palm Up Right Wrist while the Left Wrist is Uncocking. Keep your Head, Clubhead and Ball behind the Hands. The Purpose of the Wrist Throw is so that at the End of the Swivel (Impact or one inch before) Horizontal Hinge Action and the #3 Accumulator Roll, are overlaid, and occur simultaneously so that the Sweetspot remains tracing the same plane line. In the TGM 12-2-0 #20, Horizontal Hinge Action and The #3 Accumulator Roll are the Same Thing! Can a G.O.L.F.’er employ Both, the Shoulder Turn Throw and the Wrist Throw during the Same Swing? The ultimate Swingers Swing. Change 12-2-0 #24 to 10-24-E AUTOMATIC SNAP RELEASE. The fact that it Feels like there isn't a Release is only a FEEL. Yes. The #2 Pressure Point replaces the #3 Pressure Point and it must sense and Direct Pivot Power and Direction and Tracing. Pivot Acceleration must not subside until Release so that a Snap Release rather than a Sweep Release can be used. Slower Startdown, leave the Hands at the Top but pull the Left Arm down with the Pivot all of the way into Release. The Shoulders Throw the Left Arm off the Chest at Release (Hip Action synchronizing and Powering Uncocking and the Swivel). The Picture below is what the Combination I think would look like on an Elbow Plane. Hips and Shoulders Wide Open. The Pivoting Hips keep moving. Notice the Level Left Wrist at Impact and the High #3 Accumulator Angle and the Elbow Plane..........But the FEEL is that the Left Wrist is Uncocked at Impact. But the Ball will be gone before the Left Wrist is completely Uncocked. If he were on the Turned Shoulder Plane, his Hands would be more Turned and Higher. It Looks like he has a Weaker Left Hand.  |
Yes this is the stuff of dinner conversation. Food for thought.
Hank Hanney's book I believe outlines a right wrist throw. We G.O.L.F ers wouldnt be able to do it, our right hands kept level throughout the swing, our Right Forearms Flying Wedges intact. You can not throw something that isnt cocked after all. Hank teaches right wrist cocking I imagine. You could maybe push it, on plane with an actively extending right elbow but then we'd be in the Lab and not in this fine dinning room. On Plane, Sequenced release and thrusting anyone? With the left hand turned to the plane the G.O.L.F er can if he so chooses throw the club shaft downplane, actively uncocking the #2 Accumulator Angle. An on plane hammer like uncocking with the Left Arm Flying Wedge remaining intact. Vertical left wrist motion as opposed to Horizontal. Both Wedges are intact actually. A non Automatic Sequenced Release that on camera will, interestingly, often show a later release for the former downswing blackout , sweep release types. And some added zip to the ball. Its all about overtaking again and how to do it correctly. Impact Alignments. The left arm blast off ensuring that overtaking doesnt happen until after Follow Through, both arms straight. But without a trace of "hold off". Especially if you actively employ a Throw. You cant hold off and throw out at the same time, I dont think. For me personally, when I start flipping it early I check my Lag Loading but also make sure Im employing a Throw. As if my Impact Alignments need a little help from the Throw Out action to make it all the way to Follow Through with out the clubhead scooting past the hands. Thats where Im at these days anyways. |
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Can you imagine how magnificently the worlds greatest player would adapt to The Magic of the Right Elbow? Tigers right wrist cocking is better than his old inside and closed move but.......can you imagine what he would do with the simplified motion that Lynn could teach him in about five minutes? Well show him in five minutes anyways , probably years of incubation, "why didnt you just tell me that before" etc etc. But show the worlds best the Magic and watch out. Not that Im worried about Tiger or anything but time is ticking by....
Im 51, have been trying to win my local muni's club C for years to no avail. Always a brides maid. But armed with a Magic induced Float Load I shocked the world (well my world anyways) this past weekend. 16 greens, an eagle, a triple bogey and a bogey, a bunch of birdies and a 70. Even at my age I am now longer and straighter than I have ever been. A two putt birdie on the par 4 16th cemented it all for me. Homer called it Magic and it is, no need to cock the right wrist. In fact its an alignment ruiner. Period. Thanks to all who post here especially Lynn and Ted for their truly amazing and insightful personal advice. All made possible by the life long quest of Homer Kelley, whose language allows us discuss golf and G.O.L.F. with the unique precision that this crazy, complex game demands. |
That's great news OB. Congratulations on great play. A 70 with a Triple; wow. :) :notworthy :dance: :hello2: :smiley2304: :occasion:
As far as the other things you mentioned go, I think that Tiger knows all of this stuff. |
O.h B.oy
Congratulations O.B. Champ!
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Thanks guys. Its been a good year, Im also in the finals of my clubs match play, was 7th in my qualifier for the Ontario Mid am but couldnt attend due to work. Had some crazy scores. Golf is a lot of fun right now. For some reason Im about 20 yards longer too ........if Im dreaming dont anybody wake me up.
D, if Tiger knows of the Magic then why is he cocking his right hand? Ive seen him practice it and am inclined to think he is also throwing it. |
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Good luck in the finals. I'm hoping for you. Win one for the forums, eh. You're not dreaming. It just means that Winter is approaching and it will be long and hard and cold. Quote:
I can't get away with it. |
Spent several hours at the TPC Norton range on Sunday and TW has the tighest dispersion of anyone out there. His swing is tight, controlled and powerful low draws. He was practicing a very odd movement. He would rehearse his take away to the top then pump drill down. During the pump drill he was purposely bending his left wrist and flattening/arching the right wrist as much as humanely possible. All I could think is that he is trying to rid himself of the arched left wrist at impact??
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Thanks everyone for the comments and information. So, do we still suggest a wrist hand throw for a normal golfer? I would guess most golfers use a pivot, shoulder throw to start the dwonswing?
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Normally, swingers should use the Wrist Throw. |
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Where did you come up with the 50 yard loss in distance with the Shoulder Turn Throw as mentioned above??? DG |
My own experimenting in performing Shoulder Throws and measuring distance results. Also, I've taken each of these procedures to the Course many times. Direction isn't a problem. Distance is very easy to measure, especially off the tee.
I'll do ten or more Shoulder Throws. -50 Yards Using the Pivot to Throw the Primary Lever from the Top with Hip Action at Startdown. You spend the Pivot at the Top. There's not much else you can do. Ten or more shoulder Throws with Hand Throws. -25 Yards Using the Muscles of the Left Shoulder, Arm, and Back to simultaneously pull the Left Arm Down while using a Shoulder Throw. Feels like a Hammer-thrower in the Olympics. Ten or more Wrist Throws with my normal Downstroke Acceleration Sequence. Slower Startdown, leaving my Hands at the Top while the Pivot Lowers the Right Shoulder and Power Package On-Plane to Release where Hip Action Throws the Right Hand past the Line of Sight. The Left Wrist Uncocks then Swivels into the Horizontal Hinge. Hip Motion may lead the Shoulders. Hip Action Throws the Right Shoulder. The Ball travels farther when the Accumulators are Released Close together. 1,2,3 at Release. Vs. #1 at the Top, #2 at Release, #3 just before Impact. As soon as the Primary Lever moves Away from the Chest, the Left Wrist begins to Uncock. I can't find any Mechanical advantage to this procedure in a full Swing. When the Wrist Throw begins, the Left Arm is still across the Chest though the Power Package has Lowered the Hands to Release during the Hand Acceleration Sequence. Hips and Shoulders are open (very Open) at Impact. When "Both Arms Straight" occurs, the Hands become centered in your Body. So, all of these actions and Impact occur while the Hands have not yet reached Center of the Shoulders. See this for yourself on a Horizontal Plane. Stand up Straight. Both Arms Straight at shoulder height and Hands Centered. Bend your Right Elbow a few inches while simultaneously moving your Hands to the Right so that your Left Arm crosses your chest. Keep that geometry while turning your torso to the Left until your hands reach line of sight to the ball. Shoulders are very open. That's pretty close to Impact. |
I probably am misunderstanding the concepts put forth in this thread but....
I struggle many times getting axis tilt at impact, I dont have a steep shoulder turn, there are two ways that can help me. 1. is to make my normal swing but with a braced tilt built into my setup, head is clearly back, then I just think rotate. 2. take a more traditional setup per TGM. When I get to the top though I really think throw the club with my right arm, kind of like a "whip" or like skipping a stone. To do this you get into a pitch elbow with axis tilt. Is this the same "wrist throw"? I see no loss in distance, if anything I see an increase in height and carry. |
Throws alone don't make a swing. Throws don't power a swing.
Throws release the stored potential of the Power Package Accumulators. The Shoulder throw evenly empties the Accumulators during the Downstroke. But it also launches the Power Package from the Top without much chance of anymore acceleration than what the launch produced. The Wrist Throw is more of an explosive release. It uses a Shoulder Throw at Release. Almost instantaneous release of all accumulators. |
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The Ball travels farther when the Accumulators are Released Close together. 1,2,3 at Release. Vs. #1 at the Top, #2 at Release, #3 just before Impact. reading these quotes, so the shoulder/wrist throw helps release these closer together and should aid in getting more power? |
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When the Shoulder Throw occurs at Release rather than the Top of the Swing, and using it to throw the Right Wrist will use the available power of the Pivot thrusting the Power Package into Release. Using a Shoulder throw at the Top of the Swing will not use all of the available power. Quote:
The Hand Throw, Shoulder Throw from the Top, and I'll go so far as to include the Right Arm Throw from the Top, are specialty Procedures and have no place in a Standard Stroke Pattern. I'll be criticized for saying that, but whatever. The Fact of "Golf Life" is that as soon as the Left Arm moves away from the chest (not down), release begins. |
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Swingers: The Shoulder Throw occurs at Release, and using it to throw the Right Wrist will use the available power of the Pivot thrusting the Power Package into Release. Learn Hip Action. Learn how the Hips can Throw the Right Shoulder at Release. It will feel like you're taking your Right Shoulder a very long way down the Plane until release occurs seemingly automatically. Your Left Arm will only move a few inches before Impact which means that it's still accelerating away from the chest toward both arms straight. The Right Elbow is straightening but still has a lot of bend at Impact. Therefore, the Hands are still 12" to the Right of your Belt Buckle at Impact. The Power Package is Accelerating through Impact till both arms straight. |
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DG |
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We can be Gentlemanly about this. Put up your dukes. :laughing9 I don't have an "AI" Degree. Where do you get them? What do they cost? What would I do with one? I forget; is that a 5 day course or 10 days? I also know that your AI spent a lot of time with Homer. Tell me something I don't already know. "Hit me with your best shot". :laughing9 |
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Is this anything close to what you are talking about? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=89UIm... A3B38&index=5 |
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I thought the video was above average production quality. Actually, I like the indoors presentation. Good job. |
Thx, I want to learn the hip action just not sure where to begin.
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Hips were made for tilting
Learn to isolate the hip motion using start down waggles. No hip shift...no axis tilting...no on-plane right shoulder...no on plane anything!
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After you get a feel for that leave your 4 walls and get a video camera and make sure that your behind is back and your head ain't bobbing around like a cork fishin' for carp when you swing. If you do the hipslide right . . . you'll notice that your right heal will lead the right toe . . . kinda like you were gonna lay the inside of your right ankle on the ground. . . the hips going forward will straighten out your right leg . . . if you just spin your hips (roundhouse) your right heal will pop up early and your right foot action will look like you were putting out a cigarette or squasing a roach or brushing Mike O's tooth with your right toes . . . This . . .     Not this . . .     Check the knee action . . . look how the hips going forward straightens out the right leg and gets it leaning toward the target . . . BEAUTIFUL STUFF . . .  |
Thanks for the help, some of the text got cutoff with the pictures,
so the key seems to be keeping that head centered, yet moving the hips in the right direction to get the right leg in the position closer to Nicklaus, Hogan and Blake (ha, bet Lynn likes being int that group :salut: ). Here is a photo of my swing at impact:  |
Why is your left Hip 6 inches past your Left Foot. Look at Hogan and Yoda in the above pictures. Draw a vertical line from their left foot inside ankle bone and stop above their left Hips. Notice that their Left Hip does not pass this line.
The Second alignment to review is the distance their hands are to the Right of the Center of their Torsos. Look at the Lower Picture side by side comparison. Notice how Hogan and Yoda have Rotated their Hips open to the Target. Their Hips are "Pulling and Pushing" their Shoulder Turns. Your Hips are leading only. Your long lateral Slide has prevented your Hips from Rotating Farther. Your Hips have slid away from you and your Shoulder Turn is Slowing. Look how far backwards Hogan and Yoda have moved their Left Hip. Notice the Bend in the Left Leg and the Direction that the Left Thigh and Knee are pointing. They have successfully performed a slight Lateral Slide and Rotated around their Center. Widen your Stance. |
So if one can get the left knee and hip working in the manner shown/described in the pictures, without that lateral slide that I have, that would accelerate the shoulder and you would be able to generate more power? Would that hit the ball higher, I struggle hitting the ball low. (for the record, I am a 8 handicap).
I appreciate the comments, I definitely need to get a little wider. |
You struggle with hitting the Ball Low? Well, from your Left Hips point of view, your hitting the Ball off your Right Foot.
One, two or three corrections may not solve all of your problems. But, I guarantee that learning mechanics and then feel from mechanics is the right approach. You might be shutting down the Clubface to prevent push-fades (i.e. your hitting the back of the ball with a shut face rather than hitting the inside aft-quadrant with a slightly open face). It's possible that correcting your Hip Turn may require a similar correction by normalizing (10-2-B) your grip. |
I tend to hit draws and smother hooks. Face is definitely turning down, so many of my divots are right at the target yet the ball ends up 25 yards left. Horizontal hinging makes it worse, to the point I try to feel a vertical hinge to hold it off.
I have to be careful and not "goat hump" when I try to work the hips per those pictures. I will work on this and take some video. |
I don’t mean to be over-critical, but the curiosity is that you already score so well. An eight handicap is respectable. You’re getting up and down. What happens when you don’t need half of those chips and pitch shots? Can your mid irons get you close enough to Birdie?
If you keep those hips back, as Bucket says, then you probably won’t slide out. Zone one. It’s easier said than done, but you hit enough balls to make the changes in one range session. If I struggle, it’s always the Pivot because of falling back into old habits. I agree with Yoda 100% about the Finish Swivel. But once you have that, then I think that 95% of all swing related problems stem from compensations made for a sub-standard Pivot. Of course if those compensations earn you a Million Dollars on the Tour, then I’d say “eh, I’ll take the million”. |
I have a great short game, much better than your average 8 handicap, I can absolutely putt with the best of them. So you can hit it around the course and make a lot of pars with that ability. The problem is I dont make enough birdies and don't have holes where one crooked shot just blows things up.
For example. 590 yard par 5, hit a 250 yard drive, a 190 yard 4 iron. SO I have 150 up hill into the wind left, I hit a 7 iron. It starts out a bit left of the target and hooks hard, so hard I hit a hill left of the green and then bounces across the cart path and into lose landscape rock, it leads to a double bogey. I have holes like this all the time, it was hole 7, was 3 over at the time. A birdie on the par 5 and its looking like a great round. I have to many holes like that. Next hole was a 460 yard par 4, hit a 270 yard drive and had 190 up the hill, hit a 5 iron to 20 feet. Just no consistency to get down to a low handicap. I have always been able to hit it ok, any method, any style, but to get good the last couple years has been much much harder. Its not a lack of effort, thats for sure. |
I can tell from your one picture that you hit a lot of balls.
From what you describe about your game, I think that you're problems are Zone 1. Your Arms and Hands are too good to be at fault for these types of inconsistencies. They have made up for some bad zone 1 stuff as much as you can ask. Lets see some pictures with an improved hip slide and turn and let us know about any zone three compensations you don't need anymore. |
Begin the Zone one improvements by keeping your weight on Both Feet,
50-50 during the entire stroke. That means almost zero hip slide and zero weight shift. Moderate Swings. Adjustments will probably need to be made to zone 3 (Hands). After eliminating some of your built-in compensations, you can increase your weight shift a little at a time. If you reach a certain amount of weight shift and the swing begins to fail, back off the weight shift until you can locate and eliminate the compensation. I would definitely focus on Delayed Hip Action. Let your hands take the club back and then arms which will pull your shoulders and subsequently rotate your hips during the backswing. Do not let your head move to the right. Your arms will get quite high before they pull the shoulders into the backstroke. It may feel very weird. Let this procedure PULL your left heel off the ground. Then start-down by planting your left heel. Don't pull with the Hands. This way, on the downswing, you'll need to keep rotating your hips to get the Hands down to the ball. After only a few strokes you should have most of your compensations re-adjusted and be hitting the ball better than ever. One last thing. If you, at address, move your hips to the left about 2 inches, that will serve as a preset hip slide to tilt the secondary axis. Try it. Then, it's becomes a simple rotation to the left, rather than Hip Slide-Rotation on the downswing. |
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Where do you hands/club appear on the thru side down the line in video? Do they come out at or below your shoulder? Or above it like thru the neck or ear? Do you hit pushes some too? The long term solution . . . fix your pivot. A quick fix to actually play could be to aim left and hit pushes like couples or lee buck for a while. But long term sounds like a pivot deal. |
ok guys, here are some photos and pictures.
7 iron, just jumped out into the front yard, think the ball got back a little and this was out of some bermuda fluff grass but you can see the swing. This is a hitting motion. 420 frames at low res for file size thats why its a touch blurry. Face on http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gii29HmyH74 DTL - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30F1eNGpoRc Interlocking grip  Still photos      |
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Kevin |
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