shoulder plane and elbow position
 

Two posts in the same week!... i'm on a role.

Does the selected shoulder plane have a 'best friend' in terms of selected elbow position?

I'm working a rotated shoulder turn, which I believe is the TGM term for shoulders turning 90* to the spine, and correct me if I'm wrong, is the shoulder turn with the steepest pitch/plane.

Given this shoulder turn, is there a better or more efficient elbow position and would one be better for hitting versus swinging?

There are “Plane Angles” and “Shoulder Turns” but not ‘Shoulder Planes’. I think that you’re trying to ask: “Is Elbow Location at Impact related to Swing Plane Angle?” The answer is “yes”, when using TGM procedures.

The Rotated Shoulder Turn is acquired and controlled by adjusting Pivot components. Turning the Shoulders at 90 degrees to the spine is giving preference to the Pivot to direct, rather than the Hands and Flying Wedges to direct, the Clubhead along the Delivery Line.

With Pivot Controlled Strokes, the Body adjusts its positions to rotate the center of gravity of an orbiting mass (Clubhead) on a path that allows the Clubhead to collide with the Ball. The "natural" Swing Plane for Pivot controlled Full Strokes is the Elbow Plane. Therefore, your Elbow, when using a Rotated Shoulder Turn, will most likely (but not necessarily) be located somewhere along a line that passes through the Ball and the point on your body where your Right Elbow touches your side. With Pivot Controlled Strokes, it is common to have the Right Forearm off-Plane and the Clubshaft to be On-Plane during Impact. Or, consider a "Left Arm Only" swinger, who adjusts and exaggerates his pivot components to drag the Clubhead on a path which intersects the Ball.

TGM uses the Right Shoulder and/or the Structure of a Power Package, so that when the #3 Pressure Point traces the Plane-Line, the Right Elbow is directed (automatically) On-Plane during the Stroke (Back and Down) and thus, the Right Forearm will be On-Plane during the Impact Interval and before and after as much as possible.

This Procedure allows the Golfer to Control the Golf Club on varying Plane Angles and still control all three paths of the Clubhead for a three dimensional Impact. This procedure requires the Pivot to comply with the Path of the Hands.

If you don't like the TGM Procedure, then the direction and path of the Right Elbow must be controlled by some other means if the Golfer wants an On-Plane Right Forearm during the Impact Interval. 99% of all Golfers use Pivot Controlled Swings. Some have On-Plane Right Forearms at Impact because they swing their Right Forearm and Golf Club on the Elbow Plane, and some don’t. Still, it’s only part of the whole story.

Using a Turned Shoulder Plane will cause your Right Elbow to move to a specific Location and cause an Automatic “Snap Release” of the Accumulators once you have an On-Plane Right Shoulder during Start-Down and Power Package to transport the Right Elbow and Accumulators. The swing becomes almost entirely Automatic. Just remember to breathe.

If using the right shoulder - how does one incorporate the #4 Left side Accum.?

The #4 Accumulator (Left Arm) is carried across the Chest during the Backstroke (to about 45 degrees). It is now Accumulated. It is Stored in this position, along with the Power Package. The Downstroke Delivers the #4 Accumulator to the Release position.

During Delivery, The Left Arm moves Down the Chest together with the Power Package, but it does not move away from the Chest (Which triggers it's Release). As the Shoulders continue their Rotation and become open to the Target, the Hands become in-line with the Ball. Then the Left Arm will Blast off the Chest; Release. The In-line position of the Left Arm, #4 Accumulator, is when both Arms are Straight.

My mistake on wording... I meant to write selected shoulder turn and the Rotated is my choice based off mt pattern. I find my best feels are with pitch elbow so I was wondering there was as correlation, but I do find that If I let 4 go early without enough pa1, I get into a push position.

I wonder if you could clarify what and.or when a stroke is considered pivot controlled. As a hitter, do we not pivot by loading pa1 and bending the right arm? Since I'm looking to set my arms in my backswing using my left shoulder, I would be considered using a PC backstroke?

Wow, you're all over the place.

How do you get the Right Shoulder to Backstop the Right Arm Thrust?

You can't "Thrust" with a Pitch Elbow. Hitters Elbow Position is at the Side so that it becomes Aligned for pushing during Release.

Does the Clubshaft become "in-line" with your Right Forearm after ball Separation? It is, if you release early, otherwise you'll miss the ball or severely "Top" the Ball. That's a problem with Pivot Controlled Stroke Procedure. "Over-acceleration" causes the Early Release, your right elbow is out of alignment and you run out of right arm before the ball is stuck, and the Clubhead can't reach the Ball without flipping your Right Wrist. You are Pulling Down From the Top with Your Left Arm. I bet that your starting to narrow your stance and playing the ball back a little. Further adjustments won't correct the situation, but they will make you erratic on the golf course. One day great the next day, not so good.



The use of a Rotated Shoulder Turn is further evidence of using the Pivot to control the path of the Clubhead. I'm not dissing you. It takes a hell of an Athlete and Hand-Eye coordination to swing like you do.

Pivot Controlled Strokes are those that hurl the Clubhead at the Ball compared to Hands Controlled which directs the Right Elbow into the Release Zone. You're monitoring the Pivot rather than monitoring the Hands.

You can load the Power Package with a Non-Pivot Stroke.
Pivots occur naturally when the Shoulder Turn, in order to keep Turning, causes other Pivot Components to move.
Swingers Bend the Right Elbow like a "Preacher Curl"...Hitters Bend the Right Elbow like a Right Arm "Cable Pull".....

Homer Said: 7-12
You will need a Recovery Period, to reset Alignments, before you begin Startdown, in order to direct the Right Elbow into the Release while it's moving simultaneously down, out and forward.

Once you Start a Pivot Controlled Procedure (it's extremely difficult to Switch) you complete the swing by monitoring the Pivots direction Control of the Clubhead.

Hey D, you're on fire these days. Great info and effort.

Im thinking:

-first sentence above assumes 10-15-B Delayed, no? Using 10-15-A Standard Hip Action, the Hips lead and pull the shoulders in both directions. Its "Hula, Hula" not just "Hula". Not so common anymore but I think Luke does this. You know all this and more, I realize, it was you that introduced me to Hip Action. Just clarifying things for the folks following along at home.

-dont know what you mean by "Cable Pull" exactly, but one point that Lynn corrected in my Hitting Stroke and/or perception of things, might relate to this. Namely, an elbow saw or piston like right arm fold , while displayed in the Alignment Golf DVD by V.J. during the chipping, hinging discussion, is really verging on a Push Basic Stroke. One variation available to us in terms of Elbow Position, but recommended for short shots only. These little shots can of course also be executed using a less piston like Punch Elbow with an associated increase in Fanning in the Fanning/Bending mix.

Per 10-3-C PUSH. "From an "up-and-out" Elbow Position, which keeps the Hnads always between the Elbow and Ball.............heavy pushing action........This is essentially a Hitting procedure for less than full power. .............It produces an automatic Vertical Hinging. Moved "cross lIne" it produces an automatic Angled Clubface Hinging." Some omissions for brevity by me.

I had mistakenly been morphing a more linear, less fanning right arm into my full swing startup, thinking this was the Hitters ideal. Not Keereckt. Wrong-o.

Per 10-3-A PUNCH. "From a "down- and-at-the-side" Elbow Position whether the Elbow is touching the Body or not, a straight-line Right Hand Punch is delivered through Imapct (6-E). Per 6-C-2-A and 7-19. Except with a 10-3-C (Push), the Right Forearm must have a "Fanning" type of motion, not a "Linear" Push Stroke type of motion (10-3-C).

So to my mind anyways, the swingers and hitters elbow positions (and therefore their Major Basic Strokes and associated Right Forearm Takeaways) can if you so choose have more in common than they do differences. The Pitch Elbow vs a Punch Elbow that touchs the side of the body, for instance, necessitating a similar though not exactly the same RFT, Fanning and Bending wise. Coming into the ball as well. Smaller pulley wheel too? Later release of #2? Still doing some thinking on these but Im thinking the answer is yes.

And now for something shocking........what if the Right Arm didnt Fan but rather was Fanned? By the Pivot in Startup! Leaving the Right Arm to simply bend, actively, on its own. You need a Pivot in Startup! Golf is a motion, dont freeze things up, lock things down. Its a dance and one you hopefully do like no one is watching. Let er go.


-In terms of the difference between Pivot controlled Hands and Hand Controlled Pivot, I submit the following. The "always under plane", "distructive" shoulder turn takeaway that Mr Kelley refered to, is a Pivot that takes the hands with it in the direction that it, the pivot is going (Back). The correction for this does not necessarily imply a different pivot per say but rather the addition of Plane Line Tracing by the Hands. Ultimately resulting in the Pivot going its way (Back) while the Hands go their, separate way (UP) on the backswing. A far superior method to a Pivot controlled Hands procedure that attempts to have the Shoulders make the Arms arrive at Top on the appropriate Arm Plane. A way too steep turn of the shoulders resulting and unnecessary. So Pivot goes Back , Hands go Up. Two different directions of movement. Divide and prosper.

Start down is a somewhat different deal where, assuming a Turned Shoulder Plane and Axis Tilt etc, the Right Shoulder takes the Power Package down the TSP, they ride it together the Right Shoulder providing the initial power until the Hands accelerate away from the Shoulders and continue down plane on their own power.


Thanks for all the great posts of late Daryl. Are you playing any, these days?
Ob

Hi O.B.

Yep. Delayed. An Almost "must do" procedures for Swingers; but, I do preset my Hips out of the way of the Backstroke like Hogan and Brian Gay with a set-up procedure.

As a Hitter, it's easier for him because of his Impact Fixed hands position at address. Extensor Action takeaway draws the Right Elbow Back immediately. This gives him a path for his Pivot. Besides, it's very awkward for him to have a pre-set hip turn with a Forward Hands Set-up. But Swingers need a Stationary Right Elbow at Start-up. A Standard Pivot would move the Elbow as the Hips Turn.

"Cable Pull" on a weight machine at the gym. It's the same as an Elbow Saw or Piston with a little Fanning. I agree that the Punch Elbow is a Fanning-Punch, not linear. The Hands and Right Forearm are brought into Release in a Fanned condition from which the Punch begins.



Yes, Of course.


No, Never, not even If Tortured. Unless you're a Hitter.

Hands never move on their own Power. They move Away from the Right Shoulder, but as a Package, Pivoting downward from the shoulder sockets during the Downstroke as though both arms and elbows and hands were in a cast with no parts moving at a different speed than another. The Direction is Down, not out. Outward is for Release.

Hey Slicer McGolf,

I have an experiment for you to try. It will give you a very late release. It's just so that you can feel what your missing. :laughing9

Practice Swing: Read instructions first.

Backstroke Procedure,
Address, with the Club, Arms only, Extend your Left Arm straight while using your Right Arm, like doing a right arm curl, to raise your Left Arm and club to the top of the swing and to hold your left arm against your chest. Let this motion pull your pivot into a coil. It will begin to move your hips as you get to the top.

Downstroke Procedure,
Keep pulling the Left Arm against the Chest and start the downswing. Do not release the right biceps muscle. Let go of the right biceps muscle to release the Left Arm as late (as very Late) as you can into the Release Zone. Feel the Release Sequence of a Late Release. You can hit Ball this way.

It's in no way the proper way to Swing a Club, but it's fun to feel the Coil and the togetherness on the downswing and the Super Late explosive Release.

Sorry Daryl,

My questions did get a little scattered there and maybe I shouldn't have brought up anything about hitting because I don't feel my action is hitting.

Your feedback was great because the 2 areas that i'm concerned with are losing both the bent right arm and bent right wrist too early.

here's a vid of the drill you asked me to try.
http://widedivots.com/video/swing/1782/attempts

Hmm? It's not right but that's ok. It was my instructions. I left out a part. I'll do better next time.

Now, don't ever bend the right arm that far again. :laughing9 Bend it no more than 90 degrees for the rest of my life.

When you stop the bend at 90 degrees, your Right Elbow will separate from your torso at the Top as your Arms raise and the Elbow becomes much more On-Plane. Then you have a chance at developing Hand Acceleration which occurs when the Elbow returns to in-front of the Right Hip during the Downswing (more Right Elbow travel, more Acceleration). Keep your right arm bent at 90 degrees during the Downswing (without unbending your Right Elbow) until release.

If you do the above, 'you-Golfer'. Then, you can perform whats Below.

:) SECRETS: The Palms, or Back of the Hands are not exactly Parallel to each other with a 10-2-B Grip.

Release: For a Flat Left Wrist Swinger, you bend the Right Wrist and Turn the Back of the Right Hand to Plane (Bent Right Wrist) during the Take-away and Keep it there during the Backswing and Downswing. This Way, your Left Wrist remains Flat but your Clubshaft remains On-Plane. During the Downstroke, The Right Elbow Returns to In-Front of the Right Hip for Release.

For a Snap Release: you Turn the Back of the Left Hand to Plane during the Take-away and Keep it there during the Backswing and Downswing. Your Left Wrist Will have a Cup when you Cock your Left Wrist in order for the Back of your Left Hand to be On-plane. So, the Left Wrist will be slightly Bent and the Right Wrist will be Slightly Less Bent, but the Back of the Left Hand will be Flat against the Plane during the Backstroke and Downstroke and the Clubshaft will be On-Plane. This will Re-Locate the Right Elbow a Few inches or more inside the Right Hip for Release. The Bend in the Left Wrist will Flatten when Uncocking Begins and you can Roll the Primary Lever intact to Low-Point and beyond.

I wasnt referring to a mere turn of the rigth hip out of the way or a pre set but an actual slight lateral bump of the hips as a first move going back with a delayed turn even. I dont do it, but believe this to be the Hula Hula, Standard Hip Action, Luke and others employ.

Love your thing about Swingers leaving the right elbow in place.



Are you saying Hitters are Tortured? How rude. This was a surprise for me too when I first heard it. The Green Guy may have to wade in here but it does reconcile some conflicting concepts for me. Like how does the grip end stay in front of the body in start up etc. You know the grip end in the belly button drill vs a quick move of the left arm across the chest like in an actively fanning right arm in startup with a quiet pivot. With the Pivot taking care of the Fanning the Right arm need only do the pickup, bending. Bottom line is you dont want to freeze your pivot in startup, Hitting or Swinging.


Thanks for this insight. But how can they move Down, not Out when traveling on an inclined plane?

It makes sense that Luke and others Hitters bump to the Right because it's the precise path that an Extensor Action Take-away moves their Left Hand. By having their Hands Forward Pressed, Extensor Action Force moves them Straight to the Right (parallel) with the Plane-Line which creates the "Sawing" motion of the Right Elbow. So, for Hitters, bumping the Hip is with-in their Alignment 'protocol' and may be a very correct Start-Up Trigger to remind the Right Deltoids muscle of its direction.

I stole it from Homer. I can't take credit. This is the Fun Part about Geometry and Alignments. One Alignment LOOKS different when in a different Location.

Swingers need to Fan the Right Forearm with a Stationary Elbow to have it become "Angled-to-the-right-Aligned" (Spayed to the Right) to their Shoulders when the Right Elbow begins to raise away from their side at Start-up. This Alignment, at the Top of their Swings, Locates their Elbows pointing more Downward to be Directly behind and support the Secondary Lever (Right Forearm more up and down). Hitters, on the other hand, have Right Elbows that begin to raise when the Right Forearm is perpendicular to their shoulders so that at the Top of the Swing, their Elbows point Backwards Slightly (Right Forearm at a 45 degree Angle) and their #3 Pressure point can Support the Primary Lever.

One day I was playing with these alignments after viewing a Yoda video where he Tilts the "Wedges" at the Top of the Swing, to demonstrate Hitters Elbow Location -vs- Swingers Elbow Location. It eventually dawned on me that these alignments are so different that something must be causing them. I Traced these Alignments back to the Angle of the Right Forearm at the Time when the Right Elbow Leaves and Raises from the Side during Start-up.

It was an INVALUABLE lesson because I learned that with a Shoulder, or Torso Turn Take-away, the Golfer needs to manipulate the Elbow to Locate these Alignments and at best, it could only be guesswork. It's also extra motion and bla, bla, bla. Th Extensor Action Take-away from correctly Set Up Hitters and Swingers, precisely establishes these Alignments at the End of Start-up. In other words, these are the same Alignments of the Power Package at the End of Start-up BEING SEEN in a different Location.




Not that they are Tortured, but "being Tortured" :laughing9 The Green man can put his feet up and relax, he's going to have bigger fish to fry this weekend. Get the Suitcase.

The "McDonald" Myth and Pivot Controlled Hands. The Grip End does not Point to the Belt Buckle during Start-up. It May appear to point to that location for a Swinger with a Flat Right Wrist at Take-away, until the Bending of the Right Wrist. But thats only a visual "It Looks Like". McDonald and others converted that into a "this is what you should do", rather than, "if you do this, it will look like you did this". It would be nice if the Clubshaft would Point To The Baseline and simultaneously remain on your desired Angle of Inclination.

The Clubshaft has an important Alignment because it is part of the Primary Lever. The "Left Arm Flying Wedge". The Clubshaft is part of the Power Package and Plane of motion and the #3 Pressure Point must reconcile the Power Package Alignments with the Plane-Line. Therefore, it functions even during a Non-Pivot Stroke, say a 20 yard pitch shot.


I'm glad you asked. The "Force" is Downward. The Power Package can Only Move Up and Down. The Pivot moves Out and In. Reconciling them, is the Job #1 of the Hands while Tracing the Baseline of the Inclined Plane. I'm unsure whether downward is On-Plane or Vertical drop. My brain is tired.

I'm pretty sure it is for Hitters using Single Wrist Action Throughout 10-18-C #3, but I'm not sure for 10-18-C #2. I'm not Sure for Swingers if Down means Vertical or On-Plane. For Non-Pivot Strokes, it's definitely an On-Plane Down, not Vertical Drop.

POWER PACKAGE DRILL:

1. Clasp Your Hands in front of you at Shoulder Level.
2. Bend your right arm a few inches.
3. Lock both elbows in-place so that the Arm alignments stay unchanged as you move the Power Package Up and Down from the Shoulder Joints without changing Elbow Bend. Hands and Elbows and arms move up and down in Unison. Look how far the Right Elbow can Travel. It can get as high as your right Shoulder and all the way down to your right hip. That is Downstroke Hand Acceleration Power Package Travel.
4. NOW, move your hands left and Right by unbending and bending the right Elbow. That is Clubhead Acceleration and is the Release Travel of the Power Package. Left Arm Blast Off for Swingers or Right Triceps Thrust for Hitters. GET THIS: When the Power Package is fully Lowered, it's in the Release Zone. Automatically, the Right Arm begins to straighten or the Left Arm moves away from the chest, depending on your point of view. Hitting the "Bottom" of the Power Package Travel is what Triggers the Automatic Release.
5. Left and Right causes the Release.
6. Up and Down does not cause "Release".

Now. Education..........THIS IS WHAT 99% of all Golfers do, including Slicer Mcgolf.

1. Clasp your Hands.
2. Bend your right elbow and place it at your right side. (Most Golfers Right Elbows never leave their right Side)
3. Keep your right elbow stationary and Unbend and bend your Right Elbow to raise and lower your left arm.
4. As you Bend up and down, start pulling your left arm leftward on the Downward unbending motion and your hands will travel from Upper right to Lower Left.
5. What does that do for you? NOTHING, Instantaneous Release with No Acceleration. Except, it will make you Flatten your Right Wrist Through Impact to reach the ball. =D>

Seems like the pivot and the left side have to do a lot of the work no - not just the right?

True. But think in terms of "Power Package" vs. "Pivot" rather that Left vs. Right.

Some quick notes, got to get to work.

-Again, your view of hitting seems limited to an elbow saw, linear, Push Basic type takeaway. Please consider Punch Elbow, 10-3-A, The first listed Major Basic Stroke, Homers recommendation in 12-1-0 The Basic Pattern for Hitting. Or is this another sneak attack against hitters? Are you trying to get all hitters to elbow saw , Push Basic when at full power. Maybe when putting or in Basic but please stop saying "saw". Are you One Planeing us? Hardy? Hitters Fan too, come on. Why cant we all just get along.

-So divergent forces netting out when going down. Power package goes down, pivot goes out. Cool. Matches my idea of the backswing.........power package goes up, pivot turns back. Given proper Tracing you are in business. Hand to Pivot.

-McDonald "myth" stings a bit. As for it being Pivot controlled Hands, I disagree. It is all about Motion, the pivot should not be frozen. To do this is no different than doing it in normal everyday life. Spend a day not pivoting and tell me how your back feels, even if doing the most simple of human movements. The use of the pivot to motivate the hands is done subconsciously in just about every motion we make that involves turning. AND IT DOESNT PRECLUDE THE HANDS FROM BEING IN CONTROL. Per Homer, the Hands are not educated until they control the Pivot. This does not imply that the pivot is frozen or second sequentially in Startup. Where does he say the Hands must proceed the Pivot in startup for it to be Hands to Pivot? Put a brace around your back and see what happens , how awkward your motions are. I sugest that your pre cleared Right Hip is a compensation for this misconception on your part. You Sir have pre moved your Pivot. By your logic this would make YOU Pivot to Hands my friend. I say this in jest of course having great admiration for your action.

Late for work now, Geez D!

It ain't so. Saw + Fanning.


I guess the easiest way to put this to rest: The hands control where the body goes, or else the Body controls where the hands go.

How bout "Fan + Bend"?

How bout the brain controls where the Hands go. And the brain controls where the Pivot goes in accordance with the requirements of the Hands. And they dont go the same way necessarily.


Come on, we humans can do this. I bet you can do a mean right arm pickup while you drink a beer and turn your body, say to change channels on your TV.

For me balance is the link...the brain moves arms so that forces are aligned (experienced in the hands) for the task...and your brain also makes sure your pivot is in an optimum position to apply the aligned force sensations and stay in balance...staying in balance is all force management.

The key to alignment is force sensation...

To some extent the right forearm move, for me, takes some priority away from force sensation (my brain struggles to prioritise 2 sensations)...but when done properly it allows you to feel the force in your hands.

The mechanics of right forearm alignment does mean that the shoulder turn seems to be automatic and has automatically converted me to a flat shoulder turn (from rotated)...as Daryl predicts I think.

I would agree, but I wouldn't be sincere. It is a Bend, but it results from a sawing motion, not a biceps curl motion.

this is going to take a little time to sink in...
let me chew on this for a bit and I'll come back with a question, i'm sure.

How do the Hands get UP to Top in this saw and fan Punch Elbow full power motion you describe? The "bend" or "curl" is the Pickup, no? Sawing is linear and behind the golfer, no up, to my mind. I get it for Push Basic, that is a "saw" if you will, but not Punch especially as the elbow approaches a position touching the side of the body, mere inches from Pitch Elbow. Its a continuum with extremes and middle ground again. Not just black or white but sometimes grey. Mainly various shades of grey, actually.

No. The Bend, or curl, or saw, sets the Alignment of the Right Forearm. The Right Deltoids Muscle Raises your Left and Right Arm to the Top of the Swing. The Reason a Hitter Saws from a Forward Press Address, is to get the Right Elbow back to the Right Side by the end of Start-up. It's Only 3-4" of Saw from a Forward Press Position. I'm going to say this and you're going to scream. The Start-up and Backswing Motion of the Right Arm for a Hitter that Starts in the Forward Press Position, is like pulling the cord to start a Lawnmower. Pull and lift merge into a single motion from a pull to a lateral arm raise as your Hands move from Forward Press to about even with you Right Ear. Single Wrist Action Lawnmower.

As soon as your Right Elbow gets even with your right side, your Right Forearm is at 90 degrees to your shoulders as your Right Deltoids Raise the Power Package to the Top. Perfect Hitter Alignments.



Most of the Problems you are seeing here are caused by mixing a Shoulder Turn Takeaway with Hitters Extensor Action Start-up. His Forearm becomes too vertical at the Top which causes his Forearm to come in above plane and too far forward of his Side at Release. It is simply a matter of more right deltoids muscle and less shoulder turn motion.

The Power Package Motion during the Downstroke is identical for Hitters and Swingers. Notice the above Golfers Elbow Bend at the Top Of the Swing. It's about 90 degrees. For a Swinger, this is too much Bend. So at Release, the Right Forearm would be above Plane, as in the photo. Unbend it 5 degrees at the Top, and if this was a swinger, the Right Forearm would be On-Plane with the Elbow location in the photo. But the Guy above wants to Hit. So his Elbow Bend is good at 90 Degrees but his Elbow should be Pointing behind him more at the Top of the Swing. That would Angle his Forearm more at the Top, but also at Release, because his Elbow would be at the back of his side and his Forearm would be On-Plane. In the Photo above, his Right Elbow is too much in front of his right hip by a couple of inches. He also loses a slight amount of waist bend at Release. But if you add 2" for Elbow Location and 2" for Waist bend, his Forearm would be a little below plane but then he could add a little more elbow bend at the Top, say another 10 degrees and put him at 80 degrees which would give him more elbow bend at Impact and/or a longer Piston/Fanning Action for Release. It's simply a matter of Elbow Location at the Top of the Swing.....


Understanding Alignments: Bend your right arm at 90 degrees and put your elbow at your side. Keeping the Bend at 90 degrees, move your elbow a little behind you to a little in front of the right hip. Notice how elbow location changes the Plane Angle of the Right Forearm?

The Elbow Location at Release is the Same Elbow Location that it was at the Top of the Swing, but the Power Package has moved. It pivoted down from the Shoulder joints. The Power Package Changed Locations but the Elbow has the identical alignments to the Power Package that it did at the Top of the Swing. TGM.

QUOTE]Sawing is linear and behind the golfer, no up, to my mind.[/quote]

Right...But you're not going past the Right Side. BUT, your Elbow should go to the Back of the Right Side. The Deltoids have already raised the Power Package as your Right Elbow gets to the Back of your side.


This is nowhere near a Push Basic Elbow Location.

At Release, the Punch is a Punch with Fanning motion. You and I both agree on that. The Elbow Returns to the Side during the Downstroke and the Right Forearm is practically perpendicular to your Shoulders.

Lukes elbow is not held in place there like a swinger employing Pitch Elbow, but that is no saw or lawn mower or whatever.

I only do this for the sake of my fellow Hitters who like me might have wrongly thought that Hitting was a Push Basic like linear......ok sawing move for longer shots too. OK for short shots if you want, so choose, but there is no UP to a saw and a fan and so Puch Basic is not recommended for full power, longer shots that require you to get to Top.

This is great Daryl, makes me think and learn but I got to go play right now. Ill try em both for ya.

Ob

I said; If. I know its not a saw. Because he turns his shoulders during Start-up.

Punch and Push are very different. You should Punch. I agree.


I played Nine holes this morning. 6:45am, Rain, 50 degrees. I don't like Chicago anymore. I wish I lived in Australia.