Bio Mechanics
 

Bio Mechanics.

Wow, a lot of stuff has popped up on the web using or talking in terms of Bio Mechanics to help understand and improve ones Golf Swing.

I could be totally wrong, but didn't bio mechanics lead to "position golf"?

I think if it has been mis-applied it leads to 'position golf.' But from my understanding bio-mechanics is basically the study of how the body can move and its range of motions. For instance, I'm right handed...play golf right handed, but I'm left eye dominant. Because of this, in order for me to 'see the ball' I keep my head down a bit longer through the swing. I'm not thinking 'keep your head down', I'm just trying to see the ball which is a pretty natural instinct. Probably not the best example, but that's sort of what I get from understanding bio-mechanics.




3JACK

bio-mechanics
 

Hello everyone. First time posting here in Lynn's site, altho I have been a member over a year.


Having had learned 3+years of bio-mechanically derived golfswing, which incidently was the same instructor taught Brian Gay as well. And no its not Leadbetter.

Bio-Mechancal golfswing seems to be new "buzz word" that every Tom, Dick and Harry attatch their golfswings or teachings these days.

My former instructor who taught a golfswing was based on human kinetics which seeked efficiency of movement based on our anatomy.

Bio-mechanics of human anatomy can be like that of religion which has several denominations. In the world of golf and golfswings, there going to be different views of how and what if efficient, hence, different swing theories even in bio-mechanics. Although there should be only one way of true, superior, efficient human movement making the golfswing, based on our anatomy, different theories are being taught using the scientific data. And, yes, I agree that we are made different, but we should be able to use same kinetic link and muscle firing patterns.

Who is right or who is better? It is something that the time will tell us. Perhaps someone with more of indepth knowledge can post more detailed point of view.

My goal is to be that of a student of learning from this site, I have very lil knowledge of TGM, hence maybe asking some same redundent questions which been asked 1001 times prior.

Thanks Lynn aka Yoda for this forum of learning and exchanging ideas.

Btw, thanks for your help brother Daryl:)

I think golf instruction may have taken a wrong turn with the introduction of photos to golf instruction books. The Melhournes and McDonalds etc of the twenties or earlier promoted a motion not a series of positions.

I imagine the pros of the 1940's looking at the photos that were to accompany their books and sort of writing something like "Well alright, here I am at the top of my swing, my club is parallel to the ground now". Despite the fact that what they'd actually feel, sense, direct was something totally different. The positions were real alright but the pros swings couldnt be replicated by merely copping their positions.

And so here we are back at the beginning in a way. Golf is a motion. Although Homer has given us Geometry and Alignments. This reminds me of something, not sure what?

Ob

Alignment Golf has a language developed by Homer Kelley. One of his greatest of his many great contributions.

But we try to understand Alignments through Positions, because that's the only language we understand. Me too. But once I learned a few Alignments, then a few more and more, it's becoming clearer. Now I look for Alignments and I can tell if someone is out of position. What's next? I don't know.

Head up Welch technologies if you want to the best biomechanic around.

If you have a Motion that is suitably Aligned (probably learned Mechanically if you studied around here) then its just you and your Computer. You are free and your game will truly take flight. The brain and the hands doing their thing like only they can do. There are guys that can juggle three balls and there are guys that can juggle a torch, a chainsaw and a sword. These latter types are not thinking about how to do it, they are merely doing it, sensing, feeling, directing.

When things are off for me and I get tired of tinkering around I just put my brain in my firm pressure points #'s 1,2 and swing the hands, my view of the ball and clubhead set to soft focus. Good things often result. I keep having to re learn this lesson. Swing the hands. Dont stare at the ball or watch the clubhead peripherally unless you want to Steer it. If you're going to look at anything make it a soft focus on the Aiming Point......the ball or for me ahead of the ball for a wedge and behind the ball for a driver.


I think whats next is a way to get mid handicappers to use their brain/hands to greater advantage. Earlier in their education than they might think possible. To turn off the "how to" barrier which they are often ready to do but dont. You can take a 10 handicap for instance, get him to hit shots and call out various shots when he's at the Top of his swing. "Fade" and he will fade it. "Draw" and he will draw it. It will take a few balls to turn their old ways off, but it does work. This drill doesnt give them enough time to employ their usual methods and reinforces their brain to hand relationship and ability.............which they normally over ride and ignore, unless they are really "on their game" so to speak. Their good games are not just mechanically better but often I think coincide with a brief relaxing of "how to" that allows the Computer to take control. I think that most golfers are actually better than they realize or actually show. Motion can bring all of this out. Strangely, the Melhournes and McDoanlds, the founding fathers of modern golf instruction knew this. More from the "nothings new anymore" file.

My personal contribution to this effort will be the invention of the invisible golf ball and clubhead. Only at separation will they appear to the naked eye. Steering will be removed from the game of golf. Also working on a golf ball that looks like a daisy. Im very close to finishing the cloaking device and things are very exciting right now. Havent seen my assistant Mike O. in few days but one of my golf balls keeps cracking the weirdest jokes about Bucket. Strange.

Oberding, why would you leave us behind? We're only dancing on this earth for a short time...............

biomechanics
 

There are two worlds in golf Geometry and Physics
Homer is Geometry and biomechanics is the physics which drive the geometry.

Biomecahnics they try to understand how the body moves in motion etc

There are two thing which motor the geometry.
Conservation of Momentum and Muscular loading, (loading and firing the muscles)
The Kinetic Link represent the body's ability to create conservation of momentum whereby summating speed from segment to segment such that the speed at the end of the speed of the chain or system is moving at a much larger speed then the first.

This starts from the ground up, feet hip segment,shoulder segment,arms segment and followed by the club.

Also the other factor is load and firing the muscles which drives each segment.

This is physics and the kinetic link applies in throwing or in tennis, baseball, softball any bat and ball sport.

It's physics you can't ignore the laws of physics. In order for the geometry to work you must have physics.

Is that you Scott?

This "starts from the ground up" mantra has always been a puzzle to me.:confused1

I have spent hours at address waiting for something to happen "from the ground up" and I would still be out there now but for the fact that I found out the club only moves once the hands that are holding it are put in motion!

I do appreciate that the ground has a part to play in the swing but surely this is only in relation to the opposing/resisting of the force applied in the down swing.

biomechanics
 

Hey Burner, hope is all well.
It's newtons' law conservation of momentum. Pure physics.
Golf, tennis, throwing a ball you create ground force which creates
conservation of momentum.
Geometry (homer) you won't learn how to do this through geometry, you need to be taught human motion physic how to create ground forces, conservation of momentum, loading and firing of the muscles.
Geometry can't teach this.
Golf swing is 90% physics and 10% geometry, you poor guys put 90% into 10% of what creates a golf swing and this is why you all struggle with golf.

Where as you train your body how to create physics then you can apply geometry and have success.

Burner how can you grip the ground when you have never been taught how to? Geometry won't teach you how to.
Oneday I hope you meet someone show you physics and enjoy the feeling of gripping the ground just like hogan did.

Impact

Geometry: The Clubhead Path and Clubface motion 3" before to 3" after the Ball is purely Geometry. Alignment Golf.

1. Physics: I want to hit the ball with the Sweetspot.
2. Geometry: I want the Clubhead to be Traveling a Path, Down, Out and Forward. I want the Clubface to be Closing and Hooding. (The Hooding Part is slight).
3. Physics: This results in a perfect "Sustained - Line of Compression".

I would like to know how to grip the ground like Hogan did. Please proceed. Thanks.

UPP in Ohio

Given a steady head, Im thinking the key for me anyways is to make all lower body motions, Hip Motions only. No knee action or knee drive etc. The feet go up and down and the Hips turn and slide.

Try this: Lift your left heal off the ground (giving you a nice left knee bend) then turn your right hip back. If the left knee needs to come over some let it be pulled over by the right hip, no independent knee stuff. This will get you to Top hugging the ground. This isnt an X factor thing, far from it. Its just taking out all unnecessary motions which leaves you quite planted.f


I learned this from a guy who teaches Motion, Aligned Geometrically, learned Mechanically and played by Feel............Lynn Blake. If you ever work with him you will learn Motion, golfs physics. But its useless mainly unless its aligned geometrically.

Yup, its Scott.

I'm doing OK mate. Hope all is well with you also.
Thanks for the response.:salut:

Uppndown,
Needs to be trained to be able to do, gripping the ground isn't something you can pyhsically apply.
You need movement pattern training to be learn how to apply ground forces.

The Bold or the Beautiful
 

That is quite a bold statement. I am sure you have proof of this. 90% Physics? not 91% or 89%. Where did these scientific figures come from or is this just your opinion?

Daryl,
No those type of physics, human motion physics.
The club moves around the axis of the spine.
If you learn to apply the right movement patterns or Kinetic Link. The clube will move around the axis of the spine.
The only geometry needed is squaring the face up at impact and knowing how to align your body square to the target.

Golf is 90% physics ( Movement patterns)

Even Homer says Golf is 90% physics.
Do you seriously believe Geometry drives the swing?
Why is it that the world's scoring average has gone out 1 shot, should this improve.
We are all barking up the your tree.
What creates geometry, how do we create these angles etc?

Easy physics and movement patterns. How can you apply geometry when people can't even move their body effective or create the right movement patterns.

Golf's scoring average would go down if people learnt physics as well as geometry

Action Equals Reaction
 

I never said Geometry "Drives" the swing. I simply asked a question which you still haven't responded to. Where does the 90% figure come from?

Ok, I understand your meaning.

You say Kinetic-Link, Human Motion. To TGM, Motion is Geometry, Action is Physics.

The Kinetic Link term includes Geometry and Physics. We strive to separate the Motion from the Work it performs and then Align them to create the greatest possible force and direct that force to the ball. To us, "Hip Motion" is the way the Hips move or Don't move and whether they Allow or Prevent other motions from occurring. "Hip Action" is the work that Hips perform such as Driving the Right Shoulder.

Foot Action, knee, Hip, Right Shoulder, Right Triceps, Elbow, Wrist, and Hand, ALL have Actions which have Centers and are Linked in the Kinetic Chain. We recognize their substantial contribution but realize that they aren't enough for us. We need more P-o-w-e-r. We Have Accumulators. (All Golf Swings have Accumulators; it's my sense of humor)

So, TGM states there can be a significant amount of Motion but that Motion itself doesn't contribute Force to the Ball. You need the Kinetic Linking of Actions. These Motions and Actions need to be Sequenced and Aligned in such a way to bring Maximum Force Upon the Ball through the Impact Interval.

If you say that the Kinetic Link will produce most of the Alignments necessary we would also agree. We call this "Pivot Controlled Hands". The Body, through the Kinetic Link will produce all the Force, Motion and Alignments needed to Hit the Ball. It's How most Golfers try to Swing.

We don't say that the Physics are secondary. Without Action, the Kinetic Link, you can't have Golf (or any sport). We only say that Actions need Alignments and Actions and Alignments can and should be directed. Starting with the Feet, moving up the Kinetic chain all the way to the Clubhead, the more Force the Better. The greater these Forces become as the Swing progresses, much, much better. Align and direct these Forces by controlling the Clubshaft, Clubhead and Clubface, the Best. But then you're back to TGM, and that's what we try to do. We don't simply want to hit the Ball Far, but we want to make the Ball do, what we want it to do.

Maybe Homer Kelley is the Father of "Human Motion Physics", the "Kinetic Link", "Biomechanics of Golf". Any one of those Tag Lines would be comfortable on the Cover of the little Yellow Book.

Welcome to TGM.

Rsearch, Science and homer himself even says golf is 90% physics

Daryl,
Since I was a boy i was taught TGM although had great physics before I was introduce to TGM.
People highly regard my ball striking abilities I can play the game.

This is my question.

TGM doesn't teach an instructor or student how to apply physics and dynamics.

TGM doesn't teach us how to train our body to create a kinetic link.
How to create conservation of momentum or how to load and fire our muscles.
This is a specialized field within it's self.
TGM doesn't teach us how to train movement patterns or how to create them and trying to hold and create angles isn't going to teach us this.
I respect Homer and his work although to many instructors and students get caught up on Geometry.
Homer gives us an understanding of the geometry although the physics on how it's applied homer doesn't elaborate on.

There's no mention of short/stretch cycle or neuromechanics.
How to train the body or how the body functions.
We are flesh and bone, not levers and hinges.
I think people should open up there eyes and minds. Look beyond the Yellow book it's only one part of the full story.

Inquiring Mind Needs to Know
 

Where can I find this research, this science, especially this quote by Mr. Kelley?

Drewitgolf,
Not sure you can have access to the Research, Science there's tons of information on golf biomecahnics on regarding physics.
Human motion (biomechanics) is based on physics.
Homer speaks about this topic on his tapes he recorded, there's 120 hours worth and i'm not sure you can get uour hand on this either very few people have copies.

The Few, the Proud
 

I have spent many hundreds of hours listening to Mr. Kelley's work and I don't ever recall hearing him say that.

Words have meaning.....
 

Houston we have a diction problem.

These are all just words and words have meaning and some of you haven't the faintest clue what those long established widely accepted meanings are.

Physics specifically a BRANCH of physics called MECHANICS pertains to the study of forces and motion. Isssac Newton is the father of that branch of physics. He invented calculus to describe it and he wrote the Principia.... CREDIT WHERE DUE.

MECHANICS is subdivided in to STATICS AND DYNAMICS. Dynamics is the study of MOTION including the FORCES which cause that motion. KINEMATICS is the study of MOTION withOUT regards to forces.... some might say KINEMATICS is what TGM calls GEOMETRY (but GEOMETRY IS A BRANCH OF MATHEMATICS which dates back at least 5000 years to Summeria... Homer is not the father of Geometry)

The latest buzz word making its way around the misguided golf world is "Kinetic Chain"... Some people foolishly speak about "Snapping their Kinetic Chain". They are clueless. There is an entire discipline devoted to the study of what these know-it-alls call the kinetic chain called: MECHANISMS. The study of MECHANISMS (in this case the human mechanism) involves how to create a desired motion including the DYNAMICS and KINEMATICS (forces and Geometry)

GOLF IS NOT about Conservation of Momentum (angular or linear). The physicist that advised Dante and started misunderstanding GOT IT WRONG. Chochran and Stobbs GOT IT WRONG. The golfer is NOT a body subject to a CENTRAL FORCE.

The GOAL of a golfer is to get the club head properly oriented and moving on the optimal path with the highest possible velocity. When the mass of the club head meets the mass of the ball MOMENTUM is transfered from the club head to the ball. Everything else is bullcaca.

Don't forget that when Homer was young, one was taught to swim by being abandoned in the middle of a lake. :laughing9

It would have been helpful if HK had some Bio-Mechanics in the Book. I think his attention was focused on his Theories and Concepts.

Chapter 14

Is "Bullcaca" a Physics Term?

It's about time someone said that (but don't use "highest possible velocity" short putts). That's exactly what I was going to say. Except the last paragraph needs a few words about the Clubface motion through the Impact Zone otherwise I'll be talking to the Drink Cart Girl while you're looking for your ball.

scotty, get me an email, Stevie is still interested in taking the cube for GAA.

Everyone else, I think that biomechanics are one more piece to the jig saw. Scotty knows his stuff, play nice or he'll disappear. He has plenty of good stuff to share.

GPStyles,

I am having trouble deciding if Scotty's posts are an additional piece of the puzzle, or being disrespectful to what we are here to learn. Your post is allowing me to give him the benefit of the doubt a little longer...

Kevin

Kevin,
My aim isn't to be disrespectful to anyone or Homer.
Homer has great information.
Kevin I had an accident which ended my playing career, when I made a come back I shot 108. I went to the best TGM coaches and no one could help me, my back hurt when I swung the club and couldn't hit it.On video my swing looked awesome geometry wise. I realized there was another piece to the puzzle and went searching and discovered biomechanics and physics. Now I can shot par and below, my back doesn't hurt any more cause I know how to use my body effectively. My issues were physics. I don't blame the coaches they were geometry not physics.

Even with my own students they weren't getting great results when I taught them TGM, there was a missing puzzle.

I'm wanting to share with golfing world another piece to the puzzle and if we are all honest with ourselves there is a missing piece of the puzzle. All I'm trying to do is share the missing puzzle.

Brian Gay has good physics I can tell you this first hand he had been doing this for the last 14 years before he went to TGM.
Greg Norman Has great Physics, Els, Price and Faldo all the greats had good Physics and we taught Physics.

Most of the top coaches call us in behind the scenes to give teach their students movement patterns ( physics).

Kevin all I'm doing is speaking the truth and reality, it's up to each person to how they perceive this. As I said I want to share the full story.
Kevin coaches our welcome to come and learn our world and then incorporate this into their teaching.
My goal one day is this will be become part of the PGA teaching curriculum for the better of the game.

OK . . . . I think this thread has some potential. But I would suggest we focus the discussion here. Let's forget about how screwed up you think TGM is as a book or as a discipline.

How about let's discuss what you have learned since your surgery and what you are teaching now. I'm interested for sure. All the TGM debate is going to go down a path that just leads to a bunch of tired arguments we've already seen before.

So what are you doing in your motion now that has allowed you to play pain free at a high level? And did golf screw up your back in the first place?

NICE! Your best post to date.

For Scotty to say 'he was in a bit of an accident' is like describing Everest as 'a bit of a bump in the ground'!

Be patient with him, as a result of the accident what he is thinking and what he is typing are not always the same but he is a very smart guy working with Chris Welch who I believe is not so much at the cutting edge of bio mechanics but the guy who sharpens the cutting edge!

One thing I will warn you of now though is that just the same as you teaching pros charge someone for a lesson, Scotty does not give anything away for free so can only talk generals rather than specifics.

Had small back problems from golf previous to my accident. Although in my accident my whole body was crushed and left me fighting for my life. As a result of my accident every disc in my back is now permanently bulged.
When I made a come back I simply couldn't get into the same position prior to my accident. Although saying that my impact position prior put huge strains on my back any way and wasn't an effective movement pattern anyway.

My hips at impact were to open at impact this put extension on the trunk and hyper extension and hyper felxion on my spine.
In a nut shell I didn't stabilize at impact anyway.

After my accident I develop a lateral slide naturally as my bodies attempt to protect my back, this also put hyper flexion and extension on my spine.
(might I say everything I have mentioned above you couldn't pick up on video.)

My issues were lower body mechanics was the key root to my problems. Even prior to my accident.

First issue was I didn't have ground forces I couldn't grip the ground to create lower body stability at impact.
Second issue was I couldn't develop hip rotational speed and stabilize my lower body. So i had to train my lower body how to develop ground forces, stability and hip rotational speed.

Once I learn how to develop good lower body mechanics,my next issue was I didn't know how to turn around the axis of my spine and create separation so I could not load and fire my muscles and maintain conservation of momentum.
I had to train my upper body how to create separation, how to load and fires my muscles.

Once I learn to stabilize my lower body at impact this allowed my upper body to close so my hips and shoulders were perpendicular to my spine at impact.(hips at impact being 20 degrees open).
This then put no force or strain on my back. Also knowing how to turn around the axis of my spine reduce hyper extension and hyper flexion on my spine so my back no longer hurt.
Stabilizing my lower body also reduce extension on my trunk and reduce rotation torque on my spine as well.

also having stabilization at impact and being able to turn around the axis of my spine allow me to transfer conservation of momentum and create a better kinetic link.

This was done by dynamics and plyometrics, training my body ,this training wasn't golf specific, it was about developing movement patterns so my body learn how to move effectively swing a golf club.

To be honest I'm striking the ball even better then prior to going to have a crack on tour prior to my accident. My back doesn't hurt either.

There are a few biomechanic companies I don't agree with either when they say you should turn x amount of degrees etc, that isn't important.
What is important is how do we develop the movement patterns and dynamics to get our bodies to move our body the it is designed to in the golf swing and reduce injuries.
How do we train our body to create movement patterns is the key. Which is what we do.

Congratulations on your injury comeback. It must have been very painful and difficult. I'm sure that your determination to find your swing has led you to many great discoveries and sends a message to everyone about biometrics. I hope you have continued success.

I've read about Ground Forces from other teachers but I've only been able to find limited information. But from what I've read, and it wasn't much, it seems very different from the pivot motion and action that's typically taught by almost every golf teacher.

A couple of questions about ground forces.

Can you choose to increase the ground forces or keep them to a minimum?

Can you choose the "Section" of the Swing to initiate these Ground Forces? I'm looking at Chapter 8, the "Twelve Sections" of the Swing and am wondering where the ground forces begin to build.

Does a "Sit down Procedure" precede the movements that help create ground forces or is the "Sit Down" part of the Ground Force development?

thanks! Now we're gettin' somewhere! So if I may axe you a few follow ups . . . .

1. Ground forces and lower body . . . . could you describe the "component" pieces that you used to revamp your swing from a physics stand point? You don't have to use TGM language unless you prefer.

2. You mentioned turning around your spine . . . could you describe the shoulder turn components as well?

3. And hip turn . . . what does that look like? Level, slanted? Does the pelvic girdle have to go forward and raise?

4. Could you discuss rotation vs. lateral motion?

Sorry to pick a way at you but I find this very interesting particularly since you have been able to put it back together since your injury. Congrats too by the way.

Thanks for posting.

B

Ground forces,
There are two forces.
Normal forces are applied perpendicular to the ground.( your centre of mass or body weight.
Second force is called shear force which is applied parallel to the surface of the ground.
The Left foot shear force applied is towards the target and perpendicular to away from your tows.
The right foot is perpendicular are from your heal and perpedicular from away from your toes.
Lower body mechanics and hence stability can be defined by two components of movement:
linear and rotational. The linear component is defined by the interaction or the relationship of the center of pressure between the two feet and the center of mass of the golfer. The
rotational component is defined by the force couple created at the hips segment as a result of shear force application by the feet.
Under normal conditions, effective lower body mechanics for a golfer start with a shift of the center of pressure toward the rear foot as the club is "taken away" during the initial portion of theback swing. This shift moves the center of pressure behind the center of mass relative to an axis running along the target line. As the golfer nears the "top" of the back swing and begins transition from back swing rotation into down swing acceleration the center of pressure shifts forward toward the front foot. It is this action creating forward momentum that facilitates the production of shear force at the feet/ground interface. Ground reaction to the shear force created by the feet produces a force couple, which is translated through the legs to the hips segment. The force couple acts on the hips segment to produce torque and rotary acceleration.
(On force plates pressure line is diagonal to from right heal to outside left toes).This creates equal opposite forces. Ground reaction forces. This is what creates stabilization,hip torque and rotational speed.

Hips move perpendicular to the spine, they don't raise this is a illusion in golf. If you have slight right lateral bend of the spine, the hips appear raised or tilt cause they are moving perpendicular to the spine.
The shoulders are perpendicular to the spine they rotate perpedicular to the spine. Only time shoulders appear to be raised is from right bending of the spine.
In golf the only reason the left shoulder apears to be higher than the right is because the right hand is lower than the left hand on the club. In an effective movement pattern.

Bucket next time I will elaborate on rotation vs lateral motion.