shoulder turn?
 

From a setup position do the shoulders turn parallel to to the ground or perpendicular to the spine. Which I take it to mean the left shoulder turns toward the ball. Is this right?

Depends on the plane angle and hand path and knee action and hip action . . . . basically what components and variations you choose.

Helpful 12PB!! ;) but accurate I guess...

The 2 options in the real world are :-

- backswing either rotated shoulder turn (90 degrees to spine) or flat shoulder turn (to postion right shoulder on plane)...

- downswing - both of the above should have "on plane" shoulder turn.

If that is correct...it begs the question what are the differences in the backswing...which components go with which etc...

There is some line about rotated shoulder turn achieving same plane as flat shoulder turn at top/end...but it all depends on waist bend or something...

If waist bend is key then that is all knees and hips...like 12PB said...

Need some wisdom to understand how it works together...not me sadly...

Generally I think it has lots to do with the selected plane angle. Mr. Kelley said that he thought about naming the book Plane Golf. So the components must comply with the plane and hand path. Generally I'd say the steeper the plane the flatter the shoulder turn and vicey versy. So the more up the hands go generally the shoulder plane is going to be flatter and the more "deep" they go the shoulder turn will be steeper.

There are options Im sure, but assuming a flat shoulder turn back to the Turned Shoulder Plane would it be correct to think that....... The steeper the Angle of the Hands at Top , the more the Plane Angle must shift down, flatten out, in Startdown to get both the Hands and Right Shoulder onto the Turned Shoulder Plane?

Our perhaps I am wrong in assuming the Hands and Right Shoulder need to be on the same plane in Startdown?

Thanks for this.

flat shoulder turn (to postion right shoulder on plane)...


What is this saying?

See, as predicted...poke Bucket and he gives up the goods! Thanks!

The right shoulder has a role to play in the downswing. The precise alignment it requires in an on plane downswing is to be "on plane"...same as hands...at least in a nonshifting downswing?

So work out what plane angle you want in downswing...then put your right shoulder in that position during the backswing...

The "flat shoulder turn" is to be used for any plane angle flatter than rotated...according to the book...

If you look at rotated shoulder players...MORAD style I think...?? there hands go pretty deep...

now I'm getting confused again...

Your getting confused!! I still don't understand how to swing my shoulders in the backswing.

Maybe it is something you just experiment with between the 2 versions - rotated...and flat...I don't think it matters anywhere near as much as getting it on plane on the downswing....

Just make sure it is a proper turn for your full swing without sway...keep steady centred head...then downswing on plane

Position of the right elbow controls plane on the backswing to an extent too . . . . Note how close Hogan's right elbow is to his rib cage versus Nicklaus . . . Note knee action and shoulder turn components too.

DISCLAIMER: LBG cannot be responsible for the interpretation and/or explanation of “The Golfing Machine” concepts, Principles and/or Procedures by its forum members. :)

Jerry, it's easy.

You’re not supposed to swing your shoulders. Your shoulders don't know where they should be, and neither do you. Because each club may use a slightly different plane angle, how would you or your shoulder ever know precisely where it should be at the Top of your Backstroke for each club? You don't. Even if you did; how would you get it there?

DEFINITIONS:

PLANES and ANGLES; Clubshaft Control

Plane Angle: At impact Fix, your Clubshaft is on an Inclined Plane. If you extend the shaft up and behind you on that same Plane, you can easily imagine how steep or shallow the angle of the Plane and that each club uses a slightly different plane angle. You want the Club and Hands to get onto that Plane Angle during the Backstroke and stay on that Plane until you finish the Golf Stroke.

Plane Angle Choices: Elbow, Turned Shoulder, Square Shoulder and Turning Shoulder 1&2. (It’s a trick question because only one of these is a TGM Approved Plane, the Turned Shoulder. The others may be specialty or Player Preference. Everybody wants to be different.


SHOULDER TURNS: Pivot

Shoulder Turn Choices: Standard, Flat, Rotated, On-Plane, Zero. That’s a trick question too.

Rotated Shoulder Turn: A shoulder turn that rotates 90 degrees to the spine. The Turn is Controlled by the Spine. It has nothing to do with Golf. If you stand up straight and turn your shoulders, it’s a Rotated Shoulder Turn. If you bend over at the waist 90 degrees and turn your shoulders, it’s a Rotated shoulder Turn. If you’re changing a light bulb, it’s a Rotated Shoulder Turn. It’s used by golfers who don’t have a clue why they use it and why the Right Shoulder needs to be On-Plane at the Top of the Backstroke. It’s a Pivot Controlled Hands Procedure. It has nothing to do with the Inclined Plane or supporting the Power Package Delivery or On-Plane Right Forearm Support or Tracing the Plane Line.

Flat Shoulder Turn: That only means relatively Flat. Anything below a Rotated Shoulder Turn is called Flat. Maybe he should have called it TGM shoulder Turn, but that would make TGM sound like a method and HK didn’t want that. Read the Next Paragraph Carefully.

Can the Shoulder Turn, when using a Flat Backstroke Shoulder Turn, ‘LOOK’ like a Rotated Shoulder Turn? Yes. Then why is it called a Flat Shoulder Turn (TGM Shoulder Turn)? Because a Flat Shoulder Turn is any Shoulder Turn reached when using the Magic of the Right Forearm and Extensor Action. When using these two simple procedures, your right shoulder will be moved to the plane at the Top of your swing. So no matter how flat or steep your shoulder turn looks, it’s called a Flat Backstroke Shoulder Turn (AKA. TGM Shoulder Turn) because it was moved there by your Hands, Elbow and Shoulder muscle which also happens to be flatter than the Typical Rotated Shoulder when using the same club. If HK knew that we would have 64 degree Lob Wedges, which have a Steeper Plane than even the Rotated, he may have made things more clear.

The Flattest Flat Backstroke Shoulder Turn makes the Shoulder Turn ‘Look’ as they would if your Backstroke used the Elbow Plane. However, did you swing on the Elbow Plane? No. The Elbow Plane is a Pivot Controlled Hands Procedure.

CONCLUSION

Therefore, the Secret Society of TGM (SS-TGM), use the Turned Shoulder Plane, which allows for plane angle variations and shoulder location variations, that vary, depending on which club is used. We combine that with a Standard Shoulder Turn, which uses a Flat Backstroke Shoulder Turn (which happens automatically when using the Magic and EA) and an On-Plane Downstroke Shoulder Turn (Which happens when you start your DownStroke with a Hip Slide). Your Right Shoulder will be On-Plane at the Top of your Backstroke for any of your clubs specific Plane Angle (determined at Impact Fix). If you want to locate this plane angle at address, just for fun (not perfectly accurate), it generally intersects your Right Upper Arm at the bottom of the Deltoid muscle.

__________________________________________________ __________________________________________________ _____

In the Pictures posted above by Bucket, Jack looks like he's onto the Turned Shoulder Plane (which looks like a rotated shoulder turn because of the Steep Plane Angle of the Shorter Club he's Using)...his Forearm is Fanned..His Right Elbow is bent off plane (Flat) because his Left Arm is closer than 45 degrees to his chest.

The chick is using the Turned Shoulder Plane but it looks Flatter than Jacks because she is shorter and is using a Longer Club. Her Forearm is Fanned. Her Right Elbow is bent only very Slightly off plane (Flat) because her Left Arm is closer than 45 degrees to her chest.

The Two guys in the middle are Elbow Plane, their Forearms are not Fanned. It's just a guess. I wonder if they'll win any Tournaments? Arnie has a Rotated Shoulder Turn which makes His Elbow look slightly Punched compared to Ben.

4 of the Greatest Players in history (and future) and so different.

thank you for the answer

The simple & natural way
 

Hi Jerry, this is my way (with "shoulders turn perpendicular to the spine"), the easy, natural, simple and reliable way.

Good luck and have fun!:salut:

Dear BTS,

That was a very nice video, thank you for sharing your procedure and thoughts. :notworthy

However, what you think you do, and how you think you do it, and what you really do, are each a little different.

First, when you demonstrate the Rotated shoulder Turn, by standing upright, and include Arm Motion on the same Plane as the Shoulder Turn, you are demonstrating an "On-Plane" shoulder Turn and not a "Rotated Shoulder Turn".

&B: NOTE: An On-Plane Shoulder Turn destroys the Right Forearm Flying Wedge. Same with the Rotated Shoulder Turn. Or, you may choose to destroy the Left Arm Flying Wedge in some cases and Keep the Right Forearm Flying Wedge but you can't have both. The Right Shoulder must comply with The Flying Wedges which comply with the Hands, which comply with the Swing Plane. Without the Flying Wedges, you're a two-Barrel-Swinger or One-Barrel-Hitter. (for all of you Hitters out there, who can't hit the Ball as far as you can when you swing, check your Flying Wedges. This misalignment isn't allowing you to pressurize the #2-3 combination or else the Shaft would be Off-Plane.)

Second, You do not use a Rotated Shoulder Turn. You have a "Standard Shoulder Turn", which is a Flat Backstroke and an On-Plane Downstroke Right Shoulder. And a very good one.

Your Backstroke uses a Shoulder Turn Takeaway. So, you shift Planes on the Backstroke and pull your Right Forearm off-Plane. Your Right Forearm is way high at Release.

Your Right Forearm is not providing guidance for the Downstroke or Release Interval. Your Perfectly On-Plane Right Shoulder during the Downstroke is moving the Left Shoulder which guides the Left Arm and Hand and #2 Pressure Point into Release.

I don't know enough to give an accurate analysis and only having one swing with one club, I cannot list your Component Variations with any certainty, but:

Plane Angle: Downstroke; 10-6-D #B, "Turning Shoulder Plane" Downstroke with On-Plane Right Shoulder.

Shoulder Turn: 10-13-A, "Standard Shoulder Turn"

Please don't take any of this as rude or negative, and I know that you can shoot scratch Golf and win tournaments with your procedure. I only meant it to be instructional.

I wish I had the "CliffsNotes" maybe then I would understand what is being written.

My way, the simple way, again!
 

Thanks for the classification and clarification, which are very instructional, indeed. I'll definitely work on "the Magic of the Right Forearm" and EA stuff and see the difference.:salut: