Proper right-wrist position at address, etc.?
 

Hi there. I'm a relative newcomer to this forum, but I already feel much indebted to Yoda and you-all for insights that have helped me make a great breakthrough in my ballstriking.

Here's my question: is there a key position in the right wrist (primarily, in angle of cupping) that I should try to make consistent?

For a mini-history, I'm another one of those entirely self-taught golfers, have played reasonably well for [gulp!] 40 years, and as I approach retirement age, am a 4 on my home course, but my game doesn't travel well. For one thing, I'm distance-challenged (average 220-yd. drives and 7 iron carry distance is 150 yds. tops), relying on a better than average short game but also on course management and familiarity with just a few courses. My ballstriking has been more like a 12 or 15. And until discovering some "magic TGM moves," I've averaged 6 or 7 GIR per round.

The flat left wrist, which I've been trying to habituate for ~3 weeks now, has been great for my ballstriking, especially when combined with right-forearm tracing and setting the right hand in the right-shoulder plane at the top of the backswing. I'm now hitting shots every day that I would have hit once a month before TGM. :eyes:

Maintaining the flat left wrist, *always* getting the right forearm UP instead of below the plane (allowing the club to be laid off), and especially, maintaining lag through impact (instead of throwing the club just before impact) remain my biggest bugaboos. :( After I got off the course last night, I was practicing some "air takeaways" and discovered that the more I cup the right wrist at address, the more the left wrist is pulled into a flat (or even bowed, at the extreme end) position. Also, the more I cup the right wrist, for some reason, the more automatically the right arm folds in the takeaway, which seems like a good thing for remembering to fold that arm upward instead of letting it float below the plane.

I thought I'd ask you-all if there's a magic percentage or angle of right-wrist bend I should try to standardize at address. This whole scheme might be a bad idea, or perhaps there are dangers in overdoing the right wrist cup. I don't want to introduce anything that will sidetrack my progress. Thanks in advance for any observations or theories you are willing to share. -- JC (John from Ohio)

This is a difficult pill to swallow because it means a lot more studying and learning. :(

But, if you're a Swinger, then the Extensor Action Take-Away and Right Forearm Fanning with a stationary Right Elbow will automatically provide the exact amount of Right Wrist Bend based on your Selected Plane Angle at Address. Since longer Clubs have less forward lean at impact than shorter clubs, and longer clubs have shallower swing Planes than Shorter clubs, Longer Clubs will have less Right Wrist Bend than Shorter Clubs. The Address position for a swinger is the same for all clubs. The Hands are centered which causes the Left Wrist to be bent and the right wrist to be flat.

If you decide to cross over to the Dark Side (Become a Hitter :sad2: ), then the precise amount of Right Wrist bend will be determined by ball location and will remained fixed at that degree of Bend throughout the Swing. Ball more forward, less bend, farther Back in your Stance then more right wrist Bend. It's not a lot, but it will vary enough to make a difference in Ball Striking.

Daryl,

Thanks for your response, which does help, but I still have a quandary of sorts, and not an unusual one.

You say: "The Address position for a swinger is the same for all clubs. The Hands are centered which causes the Left Wrist to be bent and the right wrist to be flat.....If you decide to cross over to the Dark Side (Become a Hitter ), then the precise amount of Right Wrist bend will be determined by ball location and will remained fixed at that degree of Bend throughout the Swing. Ball more forward, less bend, farther Back in your Stance then more right wrist Bend. It's not a lot, but it will vary enough to make a difference in Ball Striking."

In that sense, I am not a swinger, because of the characteristics named above, I do more [e.g., flat left wrist always, shaft leaning always, hands centered never] that is "hitter" than "swinger." Yet I have a hard time classifying myself as a hitter. Among other things, my swing is longish and fluid, very flat on the bottom, and even a full sand wedge from the fairway usually doesn't disturb the roots of the grass. But I DO have the "Extensor Action Take-Away and Right Forearm Fanning with a stationary Right Elbow."

Aside from terminology, or my being a hopeless hodgepodge of swing elements, can I effectively combine a varying [if also appropriate] degree of fixed-throughout-the-swing right wrist angle with the swinger elements of extensor takeaway, fanned right forearm, and fixed right elbow? Or would that be making a mess of things? -- JC

What I proposed would be a change from your current procedure. If you want to use a Forward Press for awhile, then use one closer to the Driver, i.e. less Bend. Use it for all Clubs. Your nine Iron will go a little higher but you'll still be able to hit your four iron.

The problem with your forward press is that the start-up cannot easily work with a stationary Elbow fanning because your Right Elbow is generally more forward. Maybe not for you but generally it is with a forward press. But you can try. Who knows? You'll still beat the guys at the Country Club.

The Setup that you're describing is typical shoulder or Torso turn Takeaway, i.e. pretty typical Golf Digest Magazine. The one I described is radically different. If you are using Extensor action Take-away and Right Forearm Fanning, then I won't doubt you. But if so, then you'll notice a lack of continuity between start-up and the Backswing. Also, you need to manually Turn your Hands to plane at by the end of the Takeaway. Center Hand postition at address solves both of those issues.

I'm trying to get my brother to change, but even with my supervision I have to slap him around until he stops his old habits. He wants to fall back into old ways of the shoulder turn takeaway unless I point to every muscle to use first, second and third. He keeps wanting to use back muscles, biceps, trap muscles and still turn somewhat with his Torso. To tell ya how ingrained it is, he denies it even when I see him doing it. He hits the ball 300 yards so who am I to help him? Except I hate looking in the trees for his Drives and we never have to look for my ball. I would make an awful instructor. :(

Again, good analysis and useful responses, Daryl. Sounds like your brother and I have much in common, just not the 300-yard part.

Thanks for being patient with me. It's obvious I'm trying to graft parts of TGM onto my old swing action rather than taking the whole swing apart and beginning fresh. The grafting thing is tempting, though, because even the bits and pieces I've adopted so far have vastly improved my quality of contact and--when I align properly and remember to release--point-of-aim accuracy. For decades, I've been a golfer who aimed for the general vicinity of the green and relied on my short game to make pars from wherever the ball landed. All of a sudden, I'm hitting some long approaches every day that are exactly on line with the pin. Heady stuff. -- John

The answer is no . . . . depends on the shot at hand. The imperative is the Flat Left Wrist. You have learned that varying degrees of Right Wrist Bend can correspondingly change the alignment of the Left Wrist. So what's the answer? The answer is Impact Fix. All golf swing geometry is derived from Impact Geometry. But Impact is dynamic . . . sooooo that's why you need to take your grip alignments at Fix. The key here is understanding shaft, head and face (3 functions).

1. What kinda shot do you want to hit? If you swing right of the face the ball curves left if you swing left of the face ball curves right. So you have to aim the face in the direction you want the ball to START. But there is a second part . . .

2. Generally with full power shots we want a shaft that is leaning and not vertical to the ground particularly with irons. But (and this is to your question) you want to program the RIGHT AMOUNT of shaft lean at Fix. You probably don't want as much shaft lean with a 5-iron as a wedge unless you are trying to punch it under a tree or wind or something. We want the longer clubs to get in the air. So this is where your right wrist bend comes in. You want your face aimed with the amount of lean you want at Fix. This is going to determine the amount of wrist bend required for that Fix alignment. Then put your Left Wrist on Flat Level and Vertical. If you want to go back to Ajusted Address here fine . . . but we don't hit the ball with address alignments unless Fix is our Address. Brian Gay is a Swinger with a "fixy" address. So that is a valid option.

3. In addition to this you want to understand your ball position relative to low point. Farther up plane (back in stance) the more out you have in your motion and vicey versy . . . use that with regards to your face positioning inorder to control the curvature of the ball considering the "less right vector" in the path.

Bold by Daryl.:)

Great Post Bucket. I'm required (by my wife) to take time-off to be tortured on the beach so I won't be on-line this weekend. It has something to do with "divided attention" or something. I don't know for sure because I didn't catch everything she said.

But anyway, back to my question. If I want my driver to get the ball "more in the air", would leaning the shaft away from the target at "FIX" help? :laughing9 :laughing9

I thought that the Amount of Hook-Face is related to shaft lean. I thought that shaft lean is designed along with the length and loft of the club to prevent the leading edge from hitting the ground before ball-separation. So, it's ok to lean the shaft more than the club was designed for, but not less.

I'm just clarifying, and would like to get your point of view on the matter. :laughing9

Thanks again to both of you. Admittedly, while I am always willing to golf till I drop, I have not been so willing to focus on the details of setup. I'm beginning to see the light, however, because recently I am hitting the ball consistently enough to [finally] realize the results of carelessness at setup. For example, I've known for decades the value of getting a very good alignment "fix" before setting my feet, but only now realizing that I need to do this on every single shot. In the same vein, while I've always played some shots with more shaft lean and some with less, you're telling me that I need to be cognizant of this variable on every shot, and I believe it.

In an interesting side-note, last night I took my practice to the course and had occasion to hit 5 short-iron or wedge approach shots in 9 holes. On each of those shots, I concentrated on about as much right-wrist angle as I could comfortably manage--ditto for shaft lean--and "held off" the follow-through about head-high in order to maintain lag as long as possible. This was not purely an academic exercise, because as it so happened, on each occasion I was between clubs and into a significant (10-15 mph) wind. Choosing the higher-lofted club, mostly PW, I went for what felt like a Tiger stinger. Not only were the results very pleasing (both accuracy and distance were remarkably good), but afterward I realized that what I'd experienced was probably very close to a "hitter's" shotmaking. From the position at the top, just a slash downward to impact, almost like driving a tent-peg, and significantly more divot than I usually take. Trajectory was medium at most, very straight and on-line, and even with the lower-than-normal trajectory, carry distance was at least equal to my best with a typical, higher finish and flight. The weird thing for this "swinger" was putting on the brakes so abruptly. Felt like I was going to squeeze the fingers of my left hand in two.

Thanks again for your advice and analysis. -- JC

Make sure you put the tater in the right end of the Speedo . . . . It goes in the front . . . I made the mistake the other way around. Now that we're discussing Speedo we may as well discuss "shaft lean" . . . yikes.

Shaft lean . . . . Shaft lean generally means a "steeper" angle of attack . . . Shaft lean "nicks" the loft but has the face vector more right (opens the face).

Get you one of them face angle magnet dealeez experiment with moving the handle forward and backward up and down . . . watch what it does to the face vector . . . . You'll see first hand why Homer said Plane shifts are HAZARDOUS . . . . and more hazardous the closer you get to the ball.

Magnet-dealy Endorsement
 

I got me one dem deals at Bucket's behest. I realized that I had little or no "face-sense." I was focused on the head for the most part. Moving the handle up and down was a real eye-opener.

HUGE right? (the magnet deal that is) . . .

One other thing you can do with that thingie is get a driveway ninja stick and put on the ground . . . lay the club with the magnet dealy on it . . . if the stick is to the right of magnet dealie ball go curves left . . . if to the left of the dealy curves to the right . . . then monkey with that handle location to see how that works with the path.

Word
 

Word! My new swing thought these days is "Trace the Face" At fix I determine the starting line I want I then draw my straight plane line according to what spin effect I need to produce. If I trace "right"...hook spin...if I trace "left" ...cut spin. I never play very well when my clubface looks left (insufficient lean/low handle) My mid-round band-aid is usually to lift my hands...ya know flv/blv! Taking my grip at fix has also been very helpful.

Ive read that at impact fix that the right forearm should point at the plane line. Is this true, and does this matter for what plane one swings on (turned shoulder vs elbow plane) and is it the same for hitting and swinging? Thanks guys

At Fix the Right Forearm and the club shaft should be IN THE SAME PLANE ideally . . . according to Mr. Kelley the Elbow Plane is the flattest plane that allows the Right Forearm and shaft to be IN-LINE.

So basically at Fix you are simulating your Impact alignments for the shot at hand. So yes, you'd be determining the Plane Angle here (Turned Shoulder, Elbow, Hands-only etc.). Impact Alignments are the same for Hitting and Swinging . . . so yes it works for both. The other things you are "fixing" in your computer at Fix are the "handle location" - height (plane angle), amount of shaft lean, clubface alignment, wrist conditions all for the shot at hand. You can play from a Fix "Address" or return to Adjusted Address once you have programmed everything at Fix. Early on or during practice you may simulate EVERYTHING at Fix . .. Axis Tilt, amount of Knee Bend, Hip Action, etc. But once you know how it works you may just want to put the handle at the height forward lean you want adjust your face and then grip it from there.

Thanks
 

Perfect, thanks a lot Bucket. Does handle height at fix affect how much shaft lean there should be? When the handle is higher, there seems to be not that much lean, but when I lower the handle I need to lean it a lot to make sure the face isnt pointing left. Any truth to this? Am I just completely oblivious to what you have already mentioned in this thread?:eyes:

Each club has a built-in degree of Shaft Lean. The Steeper the Lie Angle, the more lean is needed to insure that Ball Separation occurs before the ground is struck. Angle of Attack and the Uncocking Left Wrist.

Procedure: Swingers using one Ball Location, Ala Ben-Hogan (as the club gets shorter, the stance narrows, but ball location is the same distance from Low-Point).

If you lean the shaft and the leading edge of the club remains straight, then you’ve flattened your swing plane and rotated your grip. A properly leaned club will Lean On-Plane and the Leading Edge of the Clubface will open ever so slightly more with each degree of lean. The Clubshaft leans Forward and Rises and the Words on the Grip Face Up and do not Turn as the Clubshaft is leaned. Therefore, the leading edge on a Wedge “Looks” (and is) much more open than the leading edge of a Driver. Wedges swivel more rapidly and over a shorter distance than Drivers.

If you were to grip every club the same way so that the Leading Edge of the Clubface (or name on the grip) and Hands had the same relationship for every Club, then at Impact, the Clubshaft would need to lean more with a Wedge than a Driver for a Straight Ball Flight.

In other words, it may be more beneficial in the end to fix your swing so that your hands are farther ahead at Impact with a Wedge than with a Driver than to compensate by rotating the Clubshaft. The Shoulders are Slightly more open at Impact with a Wedge than with a Driver. So, at Impact Fix, your shoulders are more open with a Wedge than with a Driver. It all goes back to that right forearm on-plane.

Of course, you can compensate for a bad Pivot by moving the Ball back in your stance. :laughing9
Or, you can train the Pivot. Unfortunately, you'll need to learn the "Magic of the Right Forearm" to train the Pivot. :laughing9

You are correct sir . . . the face vector changes FOR SURE . . . think about side hill lies. People think that a ball above you feet is a draw lie . . . not exactly . . . it's a PULL lie and vicey versy for a ball below your feet. So you can use this to your advantage a bit . . . higher handle is more right vector so you can use that to draw the ball. But it gets a little complicated when you consider the #3 Angle implications . . . . more #3 angle gives you more CLUBHEAD travel and less CLUBFACE rotation for a given amount of Roll . . . less #3 gives you more rotation of the face and less head travel. So you have to keep in mind that you can hit any type of curve with ANY Hinge Action. The curvature comes from DIVERGENCE of the path and the face. So if your path is right of where the face is ball curves life and left of where the face looks ball curves right. The bottom line is . . . YOU DON'T HAVE TO WRAP THE FACE AROUND THE BALL TO MAKE IT DRAW. But you don't have to fight your vectors either . . . generally low fade bias face pointing left at set up handle "down-ish" high draw face open some handle "up-ish." The you can experiment with where the ball is in relation to Low Point as well . . . the closer to low point the less "out" in your path.

Consider a guy like Trevino . . . face looking left at set up . . . . he had to move forward and get the shaft leaning enough to get the face OPEN enough that he didn't hit it between his legs left . . . shaft lean with the short irons works because you have plenty of "residual" loft with the loft that you "nick" from leaning the shaft. HOWEVER . . . once you go to the less lofted clubs aiming the face left and leaning the shaft becomes an issue with regards to LOFT . . . hence Lee Buck doesn't hit the long irons high enough relatively at his level.