Plane Shifts
 

Are all Double or more Planes Shifts a "Pivot Controlled Hands" procedure?

Im thinking not necessarily. The path of the hands and swivel (over, under) can change planes quicker than O'Hare . Not Sean, the airport. Its still all about the hands and arms I think, the pivot would, by itself, just take the hands back under the plane, no?

Isn't a straight line the shortest path between two points?

I wonder what the hands are thinking when they decide to take a more complicated route? :laughing9 Maybe, "punish the Golfer".

Doesn't a Flip Release need a Plane Shift on the Downstroke?

Wait wait wait. Are you assuming the various planes to be always on plane? I was sort of imagining the hands as traveling a fairly constant path but the left arm swiveling all over the place. Off plane swiveling. Me such a stupid, Sorry.

If a golfers plane is high at Top and then he Axis Tilts and drops his arms back onto the Turned Shoulder Plane in transition...................the Hands may still be, indeed ideally are, boss, no? Hands to Pivot despite the trained Hip Slide. The #3 still tracing.

Hold on a minute, are you saying Hip Action, your Doctoral like knowledge which I defer to, indeed refer to, implies Pivot to Hands?

Have you lost your lines, Doctor?

I was just thinking that any Plane shift is 'caused - by', or 'results - from', the Hands responding the the Pivot. During the Backstroke or Downstroke.

But, maybe I'm missing something, so I thought I would start a thread to gather some different perspectives.

There IS NO QUESTION that the pivot has HUGE plane shift implications . . . . knees controll hips controls axis tilt control arms control hand path plane etc.

Right Shoulder location location location . . .

Gotcha. I think. Here is what Im thinking. Although its Queen Victoria's birthday up here and Ive had a Molson or two.

Yes the pivot can tilt the Axis of the Shoulders say, but ideally the brain and its outpost the right hand are still directing, tracing, painting. Its like a Jackson Pollack versus some paint in a centrifuge. There is a difference and you can see it. Both involve significant movement, one in response to the brain and hand the other just reactive. Golf is a motion but with tracing. But the tracing needs the motion. Well in Total Motion anyways.

Gotta flip the steaks.

Ob

Gentlemen,

Does a Plane shift mean that it's a Pivot Controlled Hands Procedure?

Happy Queen Victoria' Birth-Day

I would submit that it is tracing IN 3 DIMENSIONS though. You CAN trace the plane line or cover the visual equivalent AND shift the plane angle all over the place . . . that's where pivot training comes in.

No . . . You CAN shift planes if you KNOW you are doing it . . . Lee Buck . . . Sam Snead . . . etc.

Absolutely!

Vickie is a little besot but she says not necessarily.

Hmm? I would think that Shifting Planes during the Downstroke in Alignment Golf means that the Hands must aim at one point (or trace one line) arrive on the Second Plane, then aim at the Plane Line for the final Delivery.

If the Hands aren't aiming/tracing/pointing/covering, during the First Downstroke Plane until they reach the Second Plane, then aren't they just being controlled by the Pivot?

Is it that they start aiming when they reach the Second Plane?

The Hands can only point to one plane-line at a time, right?

Clear the Fog. Sorry to be so dense but I'm missing something?

You can "think" or "believe" or "have your procedure" be tracing but if you got a dookyball pivot forget about it.

example . . . go to top and then "stand up" what does the shaft do? go to top and add some waist bend ala Eldrick what does the shaft do? You can have your mind in your hands all you want but if you are doing some whacky stuff with the pivot your hands got no chance. I promise you Eldrick is very aware of his hands . . . but that ain't overcoming all that bobbing and standing up. Forces too strong to over come.

Like Homer said "it's all important . . . monitor everything."

Zone 1 problems, brother we all got 'em and bad. From World number 1 on down.
Nice observation.

Daryl I'm thinking you could do an experiment with some lasers or flashlights or something and observe how the pivot and plane shift effect your Tracing or what ever it is you Swingers dudes do.

1-L-18 " Changing the Plane Angle has no effect on the Plane Line".

My favourite animation and still buried somewhere in the video vault around here somewhere, hopefully. Try finding it, I love the dang thing. Basically you can shift all you want but one end of the club must point at the line for you to be "on plane".

So to be "on plane" does not necessarily mean one singular plane. If you cant find the animation get back to me and Ill walk you through a Vulcan mind experiment on it.

Here's a Turned Shoulder Plane-ish shift to a Hands Only Plane-ish shift. We don't have the next frame but it probably stays on the hands only plane-ish plane . . . . so MAJOR plane angle shift here . . .




Here's a Plane LINE and ANGLE Shift . . . But he shifts the line out and STAYS on the "shifted" line and Plane Angle.

Now right down out and forward back up and in on the "shifted" plane angle/line . . .

"faders" but look at the difference in the clubfaces clubhead location etc. . . .

Really Good, Bucket . . .
 

Thanks!

:salut:

Ah, Truth.

Ah, more Truth.

So, you can still trace the Plane Line with Pivot Controlled Hands. Just, not as easily.

As always, Great Pics Bucket.

Hmmmm. If you're tracing can you still have Pivot controlled Hands? I'm guessing no. Im also getting confused, which is kind of normal.

Ok I just realized the 1-L-18 animation didnt make the move to the new format.


Here is an Einstein like mind experiment to try to illustrate it conceptually.

-Imagine a square shaped, school type wall clock.
-take it down off the wall and snap off the hour and minute hands, leaving only the second hand.
-the clock face is the plane and the second hand represents the clubshaft. You can adjust the second hand or shaft with the knob on the back of the clock so it swings back and through in golf like fashion.
-you place the bottom edge of the clock on a table angled at 90 degrees to the table top to start.
-As the shaft swings back and through one end of it always points at the Base Line/ Plane Line except when the shaft is parallel to the Plane Line.
-Ok now tilt the clock back onto an address like elbow plane angle. Start swinging the shaft back as if in Startup by turning the knob and increase the plane angle to a Turned Shoulder Plane or what ever you wish at Top. Then return it to the Elbow Plane or what ever as the shaft approaches release.
-the shaft or second hand always points at the plane line, the change in Plane Angle (or Shift if you will) had no effect on the plane line. The clock face is the Plane. The shaft travels "The Plane", their relationship is fixed despite the Plane Angle changes.
-to be "off plane" is to have one end of the shaft not pointing at or tracing the plane line, base line. Say you move the bottom edge of the clock on the table top. A separate deal to Plane Angle changes.

Is this about training your hands to comply with the pivot you were born with, vs training your Pivot to provide an Acceleration Sequence while not disturbing the Alignments known to the Hands. Position Golf vs Alignment Golf?

Position Golf has had a 300 year head start. The normal tendency for Golfers is Position Golf. Reaching for a glass of water may be a great example of Hands Controlled Pivot, but put a golf club in the hands of the average Human, and he couldn't hit a volley ball off a tee. Then he's told to swing his arms with his Pivot, and BAM, instantly the Position Golfer is Born.

I'm pretty sure that after a long time, the hands of dedicated Golfers become educated and many may sense that they're tracing the Plane-line or at least aiming toward the ball.

I don't know. This would be a Good Question to ask Brian Gay. "When you first heard of Plane-Line Tracing, did it sound like something new? or is it something you had always done?"

Great example. I get it. But the question is: Are the hands being forced into a Plane Shift by the Pivot? or have the Hands decided that they want to take an angle path to the ball and so have trained their pivot to comply?

Or both maybe? Although Im in way over my head now.

We all shift planes when going to Top dont we? Moe came close to not shifting but still did. He zeroed out his #3 though as a consequence. So the Pivot dictates a shift going back but the educated hands can still Trace, go in their own direction as opposed to the pivot pulling the hands around under plane in their direction. Hands go UP, Pivot goes BACK as opposed to them both going Back together non aligned. The shoulders are not on plane after all but the left wrist is, geometrically not literally. Dont let the shoulders make the Hands travel the shoulder plane which is not aligned to the inclined plane. Although I think the One Plane guys try to get it all on the inclined plane. A shoulder plane Homer recommended as a short shot only procedure. No offense to our Stack and Tilt brothers intended.

On the downswing the Hands train the Axis Tilt for their own advantage. Its like the lemons thing........maybe. Pivot caused Plane Angle change happens, so make the most of it. The alternative is to shorten your swing way way down and ride the same Plane Angle like in putting or chipping.

How am i doing here , this is off the cuff.

With a preselected Downstroke Clubshaft Plane of TS and Adjusted Address of Elbow, does this mean a plane shift from Impact Fix (8.2) to Adjusted Address (8.3)?

Thanks

DRW

I would say naw sir because all geometry is based on Impact geometry . . . so Fix being a proxy for Impact determines selected Plane not Address unless of course you use Fix or Special as Address.

THEREFORE: Plane Shifts are caused by the Right Elbow not being at the Right Location at the Right Time......... PIVOT CONTROLLED HANDS

Who is DOCW3? Thanks for the Question. :)

shifting towards where the action goes
 

The swing plane shifts, either going back or coming down, according to the action(s) employed or the combination of actions employed, for example, the action(s) of the hand(s), arm(s), pivot, lower body and the whole body (shifting the center of gravity) separately, selectively or simultaneously.

For example, shoulder rotation only shifts the plane towards the turnning shoulder plane, which is probably the simplest, naturalest and easiest.

Hi BTS,

The Ying and Yang, the Right Elbow and Hands:

The Hands feel Alignments, and subordinate all components of the Golf Stroke to its command for performing one single imperative; Trace the Plane Line. The Hands sense the Planes angle and Direction and of the two, the direction is more important. The Hands feel only a straight Path to the Plane Line, not curved or angled. Deviation from that straight path, such as plane Shifts Up or Down, forces the Hands to comply with Pivot Positions rather than the Pivot Components complying with the Hands Alignments. The Hands will gladly pass out assignments to the Pivot rather than be thrown around and told to “hang-on”. Geometry over Physics.

The Path and location that the Right Elbow travels, determines The Path and location that the Hands travel. If the Right Elbow truly controls all three elements of a three-dimensional impact, then harnessing the Right Elbow is essential to controlling the Golf Ball. We have three tools at our disposal, which together allow the Hands control of the Right Elbow. “The Magic of the Right Forearm”, “The Right Forearm Flying Wedge” and “Extensor Action”.

Short Swings such as Basic Motion, Chips and Putts, require the Hands to Control the Right Elbow and Arms. Longer Swings draw more Components into Motion and Action and thus, more Components and Actions for the Hands to Control.

D . . . agree with you here to a point . . . BUT the right arm IS connected to the right shoulder. Shoulder Motion, Hip Action, Knee Action, Axis Tilt all play a BIG role in the Hand Path components and On-Plane or Off-Plane alignments . . . In turn varying the location of the Right Elbow. This is why the Snares are very important. You can have very good aligments in the Power Package and still hit it all over the place if your Plane Angle is compromised by faulty Shoulder Motion (which could stem from other preceding components). . . and the Right Elbow location is very important not just in relation to the body . . . but maybe more so in relation to the BALL.

Excellent point Bucket.

But Extensor Action controls and Coordinates the Right Shoulder location. It raises the Right Shoulder for Steeper plane angles and lowers it for Flatter plane angles. Using Back and trap muscles can screw this up so only use Right Side Deltoid muscles to Raise the Arms.

I agree that the shoulder ball location is paramount to success. Especially if the Right Shoulder doesn't travel far enough during release and impact. Then the Right Elbow is prevented from moving with the hands through the impact interval and swinging from the wrists is inevitable and thus, the loss of three dimensional impact, thus ball control.

It all goes back to Extensor Action preventing the #4 Accumulator from releasing too early in relation to the Ball. So, its important to keep a Stationary Head, cover the Ball and release when the Hands reach the "Line of Sight to the ball".

What's this mean?

Extensor Force increases as the Right Deltoid Muscle raises the left arm across the chest. This combination pulls the Left Arm while the Right Arm Triceps are pushing below plane.

In 12-3-0 MECHANICAL CHECKLIST FOR ALL STROKES, #25, Extensor Action – Rhythm suggests that this combination helps move all components to the same rpm during Start-Down. It prevents the Left Arm from releasing too soon (Blast Off) while supporting the Power Package Down-Plane motion toward release.

Planeshift
 

In my own experience my planeshift is due to
Body controlled Hands.

http://www.youtube.com/user/tarifachris

IF I never saw a video of my own Golfswing I would swear I am
swinging always on the same "Shoulder-Plane" without planeshift -thats my feeling.

But in reality I make a "Reverse Loop" from Elbowplane to
Hands only plane.

My Hands feel only a straight Path to the Plane Line!

If I would try to incorporate a planeshift like my reverse loop
concious - it would need 50 years to hit a Ball.

So I am really happy it happens unconcious... and I feel a straight planeline.

Chris

variation and correction
 

That's what I meant: "the plane shifts toward where the action goes"-in your case, the Right Elbow/Forearm.

The pivot action, including sliding, rotating, bumping, tilting or whatever-ing, or their combinations, shifts the plane towards its corrosponding plane, so do(es) the hand(s), the arm(s), the shoulder(s), the lower body, ...., and so on, with the shoulder rotation has literally the minimum of degree of freedom and the actions of the hands and arms the maximum.

On the right-elbow plane, indeed, has the huge advantage. Getting onto that plane, however, demands manipulation, which, depending on the action and, thus, degree of freedom involved, brings various degree of variation, which can luckly be overcome by various degree of instruction and practice.

Shoulder rotation only, in the present of "LAG" and in the absence of "Steering and Hack", can also bring it onto the "Right Elbow Plane" at impact and through impact with, I believe, the minimal variation and, thus, instruction and practice.