How Do I Start Down?
 

Tell us 'your way'!

And I'll tell you mine!

How do you avoid the dreaded Over-the-Top move?

What winter-time drills -- and real time play drills -- will put you 'in the slot'?

Left Hip
 

If I start the downstroke by rotating my lefthip and getting all my weight onto my left heel I tend to hit a good shot.

If I do anything with my hands at the top of my swing I tend to go OOT.

I also use a toned down version of the same move for pitching and chipping.

I use an exagerrated version for punching

I imagine crushinga soda can under my left foot.

I still have way too many OTT shots and could be more on plane in the down swing.

I need that secret Yoda!!!

I'm hoping repeated watching of Alignment Golf over the next few months will sort me out.

I'm changing everything, and this is where I'm making the biggest change. I'm picking up a Smart Stick, and I am going to work very hard on keeping the club on plane, pointing at the sweet spot plane, on the downstroke from the start down past follow through. I think that is where I really need the most work.

Believe it or not, I have had NO concept of the swing plane in my own motion before...

Kevin

You and me both my friend......wonder if you can wear out a DVD by watching it too much :D
I just picture Yoda's move on the downswing and try to mimic it.
Alex

Down, down, down...
 

My start down involves shifting my weight forward as I drop right elbow toward right hip. At the same time, I feel my right shoulder move toward ball.

From the ground up. Weight starts moving onto the left leg (left foot pushing into the ground) as the hips bump slightly and start to rotate. The arms and hands are relaxed and simply along for the ride (the hands are "aiming" only with a little help from the right shoulder).

I have a little "UTT" (under-the-top) loop during startdown that I'm learning to embrace. (I've spent many hours trying to eliminate it, but I think it's just part of "my" motion).

CG

I'm hitting
 

from the top I want my thrust ( the straightening of the right arm/elbow pushing on top of the left thumb) to go in a straight line down into the 4 o'clock point on the ball, I want to feel the clubhead lag pressure on my right indexfinger, and passively direct that feel the same way. I want my shoulderline to trace the planeline, and so the right shoulder is also going down into the ball. In order to do that I need to make at lateral move forward with the hips (axis tilt). I've found out that I get the best results if I bumb the left hip out to the right field a little, crossline.

The "pump"-drill, or start down waggles do it for me.

If I take practice swings/hits, I'll concentrate on the shoulders tracing the planeline on the first one. With the second one I'll concentrate on directing the thrust and the pressure points down, out and forward into the ball. And then hopefully it comes together when I hit the ball.

Lots and lots of "downstroke waggles" from the "top" -or "end":golf:

I'm a hitter, so as soon as I've built up the desired pressure in the PP3, I'm then ready to drive my right forarm down and out through my aim point. The pivot takes care of itself.

Keep my left arm connected to my chest and start rotating the zipper 'over to' my left heel.



3JACK

From the top, I'm trying to pull the clubhead into the back of the ball with my left hand. I've tried a lot of things, but I always end up coming back to this...

Down at the Cross Roads.
 

Here is my two cents (Canadian, 1.6 cents US)

Startdown is "the cross roads of the swing". It is of critical importance to power and direction, physics and geometry. You dont want to take the wrong road here. Fortunately Homer left us some road signs to follow.

A key point for me is that Release and Top are not at the same point in the swing for full powered shots.

So if you're power is fully Accumulated at top say you need to Store it while you Deliver it to the Release point. There are different ways to release , different places where it begins (sweep vs snap etc) but you dont want to fire them off at top for a variety of reasons.

I think that a lot of golfers Release from Top due to a misconception that you have to get back to an (adjusted) address position at impact. I did once anyways. Its like you create these angles going back and then have to get them all back to where they started by the time you hit the ball. This is one of Golfs popular misconceptions, of which there are quite a few. Homer deals with all of them.

Address and Impact are not the same. That is to say that much of these angles, this power that has been Accumulated must be saved for the ball during the impact interval. Only at Both Arms Straight are they fully fired. They start to fire at Release but are not fully fired until Follow Through, Both Arms Straight.

The boxer hits the heavy bag with a bent right elbow and then straightens it versus hitting the bag with a fully extended right arm. Save some thrust for the ball, hitting or swinging. Dont Release from Top.

So Homer had to identify the best ways to Deliver this Stored power from Top to Release without it spilling out or becoming misaligned. This is TGM's Startdown, Homers road sings at the crossroads. You have options.

This is where Im at anyways, guys.

ob

Face and Head
 

Have a very, vivid sense of the base of your plane line. for your chosen baseline to have any relevance however you must know where your clubface is pointing in relation to both the target line and flight line of the ball. So you must have a very clear idea of this at impact fix. It is not an over the top move if you trace a straight plane line, but appear to move OTT in relation to your target line. Example: Into the wind I like to close the clubface in order to reduce the loft (too much shaft lean tends to open the face...then of course if you do not match that degree of forward lean at impact you are going to hit it big left!) Back to my low shot: I still aim the clubface at the target...my body feels like it is aimed way right (but the ball doesn't know!) I then trace a straight plane perpendicular to the clubface. The results is a low-pull straight at the target...blistered! My point is that the plane is better understood in its relationship to the clubface. Aim the face...trace the line with the sweetspot.

Hi!
I´ve been on this site for over a year now and thank everyone for helping me understand the golfswing better especially Henning, the swedish ambassador of TGM!
I have been battling with i) - going under plane on the way back and ii)have a strong tendency to throw it OTT on the way down.
2 things have really started to help me with the problem areas
i) the image of keeping my right forearm higher than the left has created greater axis tilt and held the shaft on plane better - whoops... maybe wrong thread!
ii) I bought a CROWBAR 750mm, 2.6 Kg, (biltema for the swedish) fits in the hands excellently and even has a "clubface" feature. One of the best training aids I´ve ever had! I swing the crowbar before (could need some explaining!) I go to the range in order to get the "down" not the "over".
I'd never felt so much down, I feel the underarm throw feeling and the sheer weight of the thing makes an intenser swinging feeling. I don't know but presumably doing a few sets with it would n't hurt ones distance?!
Thanks again for great info:salut:

Sam Snead/Homer/Tomasello 10-20-E
 

That's Sam Snead's approach and 10-20-E Wrist Throw per Tom Tomasello's instruction of TGM.

DG

I guess I'm in good company, then. Too bad I don't get the same results.:)

Slight hip bump, elbow re-attaches, keep left hip clearing then either pull hard w/ the left side or hit the crap out of it with my bent rt wrist.

Experimenting w/ both Tommy's Aussie rt arm swing and Brian Gay's swinging pattern. Both are straight, tidy patterns that dont involve a buch of counterfalling, club across the line, javellin throwing, or flipping :naughty:

#4 pp
 

When swinging I just try to create pressure in the #4 pressure point (left hip slide/leaving my arms behind). This gives me the "stretched out on a rack" feeling yoda talks about in the AG dvds when he discusses the start down waggle.
My hitting stroke is still a work in progress.

I start my down swing by falling into my left side with leading hips and a harley move in the right wrist that lays the club off and creates massive lag. I do not try to fire my hips, or my torso, I try to feel as though I hold me hips and torso back as long a possible. All I want to do on the down swing is make a lateral slide and have the right arm fully extended by impact, the rest will take care of it's self.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkJLtdSsFXQ

Thanks,
BurleyGolf-

My current key is to keep my right side back and feel the roll of the left wrist - I want to be parallel to the plane line at impact. The feel is a draw since my tendency is the block/fade.

Note: this is all subject to change - next week it could be a different selection from the TGM menu!!:golf:

All I think about is trying to deliver my hands and right shoulder down plane.

Yoda, winter has passed and it's already spring... BUT surely winter-time drills -- and real time play drills would be just as effective in the spring. :laughing9

So please, tell us yours!

I apply pressure into the ground, i feel my left shoulder move down, out and forward applying pressure in that direction. Once my ankle, knee, hip and left shoulder joint are in line, then i rotate keeping the left shoulder on a flat plane to promote horizontal hinging and keep maintaining the pressure into the ground via the left foot.

Matt Lee Scott

Sustian the "LAG"!
 

I keep rotating my Pivot to pull/drive the Power Accumulators through Impact, during which the Clubhead lags behind the Grip, which lags behind the Arms, which lag behind the Shoulders, which lag behind the Hips, and to the Finish.:salut:

This is the most difficult concept for me to get when it comes to the golf swing.
As anybody can tell from reading this thread, each person describes what they do using a different vocabulary. In my opinion, the most vexing concept is that of aiming point. Just exactly what is being aimed, and how is it being aimed? Are the eyes focused on the aiming point? If not, where are they focused. I am currently working on Tom Tomasello's (demonstrated in the Lee Deitrick video letters in the gallery) idea of throwing the hands down and out on the plane from the top. This approach takes the lower body out of the move except for following the momentum generated by the hands swinging the club. It is hardest the me to do with the driver so I will continue to practice.

I'm also a hitter and my first move has been pushing my right forearm pp#1 at my aim point and out through to right field. Lately I have tried to keep that "push" (flying wedge with right wrist)all the way through and well past impact.
I have also seen a photo of myself recently 1/2 into the downswing and my right forearm and right elbow seem to be lagging behind my right hip (disconnection with the body). So I am toying with making my first move a right elbow adjustmnet towards my right hip before firing at my aimpoint. I have only tried it a couple of holes and like the results so far.

Bump
 

Yoda- Are you ready to tell us your's?

To my untrained eye, it looks to me like you do a lateral hip slide (hula hula) move to start your downstroke.

Yes but there is the little bit of business where Yoda's left heel slams down on the ground first , I think.

Right, left, right, left , right, left etc etc etc. Wild Lynn Melhourne McDonald Blake they call him. Well sometimes anyway. I heard it once, I think. Maybe.

I am using the ground up but my only thought is keep the flying wedge frozen (hands in casts) at the top and spin the right shoulder down plane (thanks Daryl!).

BTW was watching JB Holmes on the range Sunday - he is a short stocky guy but is as long as anyone out there. His swing is compact (unlike Bubba Watson or Dustin Johnson). He hits it straight with a little fade. He has obviously figured it out.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cbd3hqj6vEo

Is J P Holmes a hitter? Since relatively short backswing at the top, frozen bent right wrist at impact to follow through?

I do as many have described - step on the left heel and make sure my left glut goes back to the (invisible) pane of glass before my right hip rotates forward. I've only been doing this for about a month but it has transformed my game.

While on the course, to keep this feeling going I do the pump drill where I make sure I also send my right shoulder down towards the ball.

At home I use an impact bag which makes it quite easy to get this move grooved.

I watched him hit balls for 45 minutes Sat. - sure has a lot of pivot - so I cannot answer - could be 4 barrels? He defintely fades the ball and but not a high trajectory. Sure gets a lot of power for a shorter stocky guy.

I added a video of how I start the down swing, one is full motion with practice move and the other is full no practice move.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNrhcZn3W88

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DkJLtdSsFXQ

I'm not sure what to call it, but I sure like it Pro. I see a lot of our friend Mr. Trolio's pivot in there. Great job! :salut:

Kevin

Johnny's take
 

This is Johnny Miller's view from 1976. Not claiming it is correct but may be of interest to some.

The various parts of the body do not complete their backswings at the same time. They wind up sequentially. The knees and hips will complete their backswing before the shoulders, the shoulders will complete their backswing before the arms, and while most of the wrist cock is done early in the backswing, there is a tad more wrist cock at the top. This additional wrist cock occurs due to the pull of the clubhead on the hands as the club finishes its backswing, and also because of the pull of the left side which initiates the downswing. The shaft bending in response to the change of direction causes the wrists to achieve their “maximum” cocked position.
In fact, the left leg makes its move into the downswing just as the hands and club have completed their backswing. Then there is a time lag before the pull initiated by the left leg travels up the left side and is felt in the hands. This time lag is the pause you feel. But it is a vital feel to have because it’s proof to you that your change of direction is correct.
You begin the downswing in the same way that you started the backswing, by a move from the knees. To be more precise, the knees move laterally toward the target. The reasoning is the same as on the backswing, too. On the backswing, you had to shift your weight to the right foot. As you start down, your weight is still on your right foot, and, as has been said, you must have your weight on the left foot in the downswing. So the knees go to work. The left knee pulls to the left and the right knee drives right behind it with a push off the right foot.
I want you to be quite certain on this point. It’s the knees that start the downswing, not the hips. So many teachers, and well known ones, too, still insist on a “lateral shift of the hips” initiating the downswing. This is a bunch of bunk. In reality, you can’t turn your hips without the legs initiating the movement.

Johnny Miller . . . Then and Now
 

And yet today, the 2010 version of Johnny Miller -- from the tower atop the 18th green at Riviera and the Northern Trust Open -- extolled the late wrist cock of the Champion, Steve Stricker, and proclaimed his swing (loosely quoted) the one "we may all be copying in the future".

My how things do change.

:salut:

Geometrically, the Snap Load [late Left Wrist Loading Action] is most efficient.

-- Homer Kelley

Is this quote found in the sixth edition?