Shoulder Throw Procedure
 

Explanation:(Book)
10-20-C SHOULDER TURN THROW Sharp initial acceleration of the Shoulder Turn against the #4 Pressure Point. Loading motion of the Left Arm (10-11) Automatically throws the Left Arm off the chest when the Pivot acceleration subsides per 10-19-C. See 2-M-4.

What to do:
The Right (and Left) Shoulder is Thrown by the Lower Pivot Components. Is that what we're trying to do??

How to do it:
Questions

1. Can one perform the procedure if one “stops at the Top” before the Initial Start-Down?
2. Is it an inferior procedure to “stop at the Top” ?
   
3. To perform the Procedure correctly, does one need to start the Downswing Lower Pivot Components (Sit Down) before the Backswing is completed?

Interesting topic, Daryl.

Can I add another question...?

How do you control the pivot subsiding bit that actually releases acc. 4?

"10-20-C SHOULDER TURN THROW Sharp initial acceleration of the Shoulder Turn against the #4 Pressure Point. Loading motion of the Left Arm (10-11) Automatically throws the Left Arm off the chest when the Pivot acceleration subsides per 10-19-C. See 2-M-4.
"

. . . each segment has momentum transfered hopefully from the ground up to the next segment actuating the #4 pressure point and starting the 4,1,2,3 release sequence. Some instructors talk about pivot braking . . . pivot stops earlier for "drawy" and continues to "push on" for "cutty."

Nothing to control really. The Knees and Hips have only so much motion. And the Hip turn slows as they near the end of their motion. That's the subsiding. It's pretty much automatic.

I'm wondering if the Shoulder Throw is an actual "Whipping" of the Right (and Left) Shoulder during the downstroke.

If we start the Pivot Downstroke Sequence before the Arms reach Top or End of Backstroke, then we can create far greater Lag in the Pivot Train. I was wondering if this is the "How to" develop the motion to Throw the Shoulder??? It seems abrupt to try to Throw the Shoulder from a paused Top of Backstroke.

Also????? Is the Shoulder Throw equally effective with a Straight Line and Circle Path Delivery Path?? Is it more compatable with Circle Path?? Or, is it just a matter of training??

These are all questions I'm going to ask Yoda during my lesson in a few weeks unless I can get a better understanding before.

11-20 say that shoulder turn throw can be combined with wrist throw...but i guess that it does not need to be.

I presume that a shoulder throw can give varying release points...depends on combination with other throws??

I wonder whether you get a circle path/earlier release with pure shoulder throw and no axis tilt....

But if you add a wrist throw and you add more axis tilt...maybe later release...

If you can use shoulder throw in variety of swings with different release points....then you have to have some control over the shoulder release..ie. pivot subsiding... is aiming point a way??

Back on your original point... maybe the earlier in backswing your hips slide /turn to begin downswing...the more you can head towards float loading rather than drag?? Because if you start downswing hip action early and do not increase your lag in transition...you got pretty short swingers "top"??

Envious of your lesson! Good idea to have a think about what is worrying you before you go...but i find best not to conclude too much before lessons...otherwise you can spend most of the lesson "unlearning" what you misconcluded pre-lesson...!!

Daryl

I am new to TGM.

The book states that the shoulder must be thrown at the start of the downswing. It doesn't state whether the forces throwing the shoulder come from active muscular forces in the upper torso or whether the shoulder turn is more passive in response to movements of the lower torso. That quoted statement also doesn't dictate whether any active shoulder turn (shoulder throw action) is due to rotating the right shoulder actively downplane (pushing action) or whether it is due to pulling the left shoulder forward (pulling action). Did HK discuss these issues and explain why one method is better than another method?

Golfbulldog

Why do you have difficulty understanding why the downswing pivot action subsides? Surely it is due to the nature of human anatomy in the context of the golf swing. The pelvic movement subsides when a golfer increasingly puts more weight on the left leg and turns the left leg into a firm supportive post (firm left side) that resists forward movement of the pelvis and only allows the left hip to clear backwards towards the tush line. The shoulder turn subsides slightly later when the stretched torso muscles rotating the upper torso have shortened to their resting level (muscle length at address).

Jeff.

That's not exactly true. Pivot Strokes begin their Downswing with a Hip Turn. Thus, Pivot Lag is maintained during the Downswing Sequences.

My questions are merely to understand the "How To' to what HK said is a Shoulder Throw.

One of my questions concerned 'should the Lower Pivot Components begin their downswing Sequence prior to the Arms completing their Backswing. This increases the Lag in the Pivot Train. Then, the Shoulder could be moved faster which causes a corresponding increase in the #4 Accumulator.

On the other hand, my questions may not be relevant if I've misinterpreted the purpose of the Shoulder Throw procedure. The purpose being to begin the release sequence with a stronger #4 Accumulator.

Hip Action Throws the Right Shoulder
 

Per 7-15:

"With Swingers using the Arc of Approach (2-J-3), this actuation may be executed as a 'throwing' of the Right Shoulder by the Hips as in 10-19-C."

:)

Yoda - thanks for the reply. Why did HK use the word "may" in that sentence. The word "may" implies the existence of an alternative choice. Is there an alternative choice that is equally efficient?

Jeff.

Hi Jeff - thanks for your comments...my problem is merely HOW one can manipulate pivot so that, at varying points, one can achieve varying accumulator 4 release points...to what extent are these controllable and by what?

I am not convinced that "controlling" your weight shift is a good way to manipulate varying acc.4 release points...shift "happens"... i think that delivery path of the hands is probably a more refined way... just not sure how one can integtrate, or maybe should /should not integrate, the variety of throws into the two principle options of straight versus circle delivery path?

Most people do not report feeling the pivot subsiding before accumulator releases... but as it is the reason that acc 4 releases...and acc 4 can be released under our control at different places in downswing...we must be able to exert some control...hands contol as per Homer's wishes?...but which other components are modified ...?

Should we aim to be conscious of a slowing of pivot? I was last year and my game improved...I could feel a "blast off" my chest and manipulate my pivot motion through power point 4 sensation...but not very refined...and it was actually more of a "blast down" off my chest...very strong feeling .

Sorry to threadjack Daryl...:salut:

The phrase:
Sharp initial acceleration of the Shoulder Turn against the #4 Pressure Point .......

I guess that this is where I have understanding issues. How much Pivot qualifies as "Sharp initial Acceleration"?

How To:

If we vary the initial acceleration..Are we varying the amount of #4 Accumulator?

1. Is the "Shoulder Throw" the way to maximize #4 Accumulator?
   
2. Is "Hip Action" the way to maximize "Shoulder Throw"?
   
3. Is Starting the Downswing Pivot Sequence prior to the Arms completing the Backswing, the way to maximize "Hip Action" effect on Shoulder Motion?

Forgive me for re-stating, but my questions become a little more zeroed in as I learn a little more. But I'm still not sure if I'm barking up the wrong tree.

So many options!

According to Homer the Swinger has a quick startdown . . . so the hand acceleration is reached quicker than the Hitter respectively . . . so according to Homer the Swinger cranks the gyroscope and then just hangs on any attempt to further accerelerate can potentail gum up the works and disrupt the orbit. So you just crank it up and stay ahead of it.

The danger with all the emphasis on Shoulder Acceleration is dragging your hands out too much . . . .

Delayed response
 

For the Swinger, Shoulder Turn Throw is better thought of as Trigger Delay and used with Wrist (Left) Throw which requires Trigger Delay.

Golfbulldog

You state that one could theoretically vary the release point of accumulator point 4 by varying the speed of the downswing pivot action. I would be interested in learning how that it is consciously possible, considering that the right arm/hand/right shoulder complex is also part of the power package assembly and acts as a checkrein on movement of the left arm. I can only envisage a swinger varying the time of release of the entire power package assembly unit by varying the initial acceleration-speed of the downswing pivot action (varying the initial acceleration thrust of the shoulder thrust action).

Jeff

Hi Jeff

Never said that speed of downswing would definitely vary release point of acc4.

I agree that initial acceleration of your pivot CAN vary release.... but I am interested in how one combines high initial acceleration with a late release...I am stating little...mainly asking questions.

How do you combine shoulder and wrist throws?

What are the requirements/limitations when you do this?

Do you need aiming point procedure to link the two together?

If you have a very sharp initial pivot motion, you really load 4... but I feel that a big load on 4 can lead to early release of 2 and 3...maybe?

Golfbulldog

I dont know how to consciously combine an initial shoulder thrust with a delayed release. My release pattern is automatic and random. I lack insight into how golfers deliberately (non-automatically) produce a delayed release in a full golf swing when swinging (not hitting).

Jeff.

A delayed release is still a properly timed release - It just allows the right elbow to go deper in the swing. Maxium participation with a touch of float load on the DS. Watch Ben Doyle move a clubhead onto the ball. Watch his pivot and right elbow position. "Hit it with your ass, " which means you really need to remain on the base line as the cluhead rolls to square. 'You hit the ball with the pressure points of your hands."- Number three with a right hip blast.

I think must tgmers develop non- Auto first before trusting automatic. More control with Non- A. With Auto, one needs to have a solid belief in the Laws of nature.

@Daryl and Yoda - Did you guys end up discussing this in your lesson together? I've wondered about that question for years. I've studied a lot of video and have found that, with a Driver, tour players visibly start shifting their weight left 2 to 4 frames (2/30 to 4/30 of a second) before the hands start down. Interestingly, in one video demonstrating hitting and swinging, Yoda starts visibly shifting left 4 frames (swinging) and 3 frames (hitting) before his hands start down.

And really, it's such an important topic, because shifting your weight that way is a very specific procedure, and the resulting power that comes with it is dramatic, to say the least.

I've been working on that this summer, although for shorter, or more controlled shots, I seem to default to a more mechanical, less laterally dynamic rotation around my spine.

Am I correct in assuming that this 'dynamic' weight shift is mandatory for full shots? Or in other words, when looking at video of me hitting a Driver, must there be a visible shift to the left 2-4 frames prior to the hands starting down, and if I'm not doing this, am I not shifting your weight properly?

Thanks in advance for your help!

Sequencing the Start Down
 

That's right, Andy. In Pivot Strokes, the Downstroke begins at the ground (the Feet) and sequences upward through the Knees, Hips and Shoulders. The Hip Action (Hips pull Shoulders) shifts the weight and maintains the On Plane Right Shoulder during the Start Down. This Body Action pulls the Arms, and the Arms pull the Hands (which have experienced a momentary static period that defines the Top).

:)

Wow, I can't even begin to tell you how helpful a definitive answer on that issue is for me. Again, thanks.

Found this old quote on some study I am doing.

This motion that starts the downstroke in a Pivot Stroke that begins with the feet. What does the foot do? Is it a rotational move with the left foot, does that rotate the left knee which starts to rotate the left femur and then pulls the hip leftward? Is the hip movement and lower left leg two separate motions or two intertwined motions?

to me . . . .now this here is to me . . . . the joint segments are kinda like the power accumulators . . . . they get out of line then loaded and then get in line . . . you could get really technical about this deal for sure . . . so what part of the foot are you loading and so on and so on . . . but take the left ankle for instance . . . watch hogan . . . left ankle flexes and is loaded in the b.s. then is flexed and loaded more in startdown and then the ankle segment accumulator joint whatever you wanna call it starts getting IN LINE . . . crush the can squash the bug stomp the turd whatever . . . so . . . that's what happens that is a description OF THE PROCEDURE . . . but what IS THE PROCEDURE ITSELF? that one cat on them other forums considers the "lower body" to be anything below the thorax sternum or whatever . . . I kinda like that description because you can just say I'm going with the junk underneath there loading that joker and unloading it . . . using the ground . . . loaded like a hockey stop and go.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PyXVN...eature=related

I see a left knee movement.

As you know I am a excessive hip slider, head hang back dropper, underplaner.

I worked on this, along with the other thread discussion about tightening up the radius and no joke my hands were right at the middle of my stance at the delivery line rather than my normal outside the right leg.

I need to do more testing but I was always told hip, thinking its more of a foot-knee-hip motion, in that order.

Thats one heck of a video thanks Bucket. George Knudson would've killed to have that one on his tv set back in the days when he made a study of Hogan.

I love that foot drag business .......luv it. Cant do that if your weight isnt left already. Cant drag a weighted foot.

To me, simply put, that video clearly shows a classic 'baseball' weight shift. Shift weight right to planted right foot (left heel lifts), shift weight left and plant the left foot.

That left hip bump/shift and planting left foot are functioning as one, in one simultaneous motion imho.

A marching we will go!
 

Hi Andy. I have just been with Lynn for several days and I had the joy of learning a ton and watching Curt Sanders and Cathy Schmidt destroy golf balls.

Before meeting with Lynn, I had no Flail, not even a real paradigm for a Flail. My grip was bad as were many other things. Lynn spent my first day doing the MacDonald March with heels up and down. It took me a couple of weeks to become comfortable stepping on the right heel, balancing on the left toes and Lagging the club up.

Now, I practice doing that move as slowly as possible and "resting" at the top while my head is perfectly Stationary. I now feel very strong and stable at the TOP and I glare at that ball determined not to move until I see the club head Blur collect the ball on my way to the "Arrow through the Ear" position.

When I have rested at the Top, I am ready to snap the whip or Flail. This means a small, quick left heel down "as if I were afraid to step down off a cliff!" My left leg is 1.75" shorter than my right so maybe this won't work for you but Lynn's instructions worked for me regardless of my artificial left hip and length issues.

http://youtu.be/zR3B4qPZOEA

Here is my driver swing. Notice how I am trying to let my Flail work past my body. Below is Curt Sanders hitting it uhmmm further and better. :crybaby:
He is a BEAST and the nicest guy. He hit this ball so hard that the ball blacked out several times and wobbled as it tried to bounce off a military jet going by. It just kept elevating!

http://youtu.be/IURlJbgcrns

Anyway, Curt seems to restrict his head as his Flail destroys the ball! Now Andy, I'm not Curt or Lynn or Daryl or OB or Ben...I'm just saying... :golf:

Now I met this gentleman Wayne Watts. He is a very nice guy and Assistant Pro at Cuscowilla. Gracious and talented. Watch how he Flails around ! Left heel up and down!

http://youtu.be/XM079i3iSvQ


ICT

More and Better
 

Andy, here is a really good source for lots of cool exercises!

http://lynnblakegolf.com/forum/showt...flail#post2065

ICT

Just did a speed read of Hogans two books, you know I think I like Power Golf the most...but Im thinkIng Hogan would attribute that foot work seen in that video to the Hips. I know Yoda would. for his own swing.

Just saying. The Feet and the Knees are Anchors. So much of the golf swing is an illusion.

In this video, Hogan uses the phrase: "The lower part of the body". He mentions knees and hips.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QL_6M_xZvq0

It's amazing how much info he managed to put into 73 seconds. The motion he demonstrates says more than you can write down on 1000 pages.

Corrections welcome
 

:laughing9 :) I'm fine with however the right way to describe it happens to be. Since my legs were so immobile, it helps me to feel the feet moving. And I cannot feel my artificial left hip. I can turn my right hip all day but I have to be careful not to sling my shoulders over the top so I go right/left and let my left heel come up.

What about popping the right knee in? If I roll my right hip back and let the left heel come up will that establish the right shoulder on plane? I think it will. Lynn really explained the need to Trace the Base Line of the Plane and the independent movements of the Hips and Arms. I am envisioning picking my right arm straight up and Hitting but I do not want to wash my hands since shaking hands with Lynn, if you know what I mean.

ICT