Confused about throw out action
 

6-B-3-0: Homer talks about throw out action "automatically aligns the Clubshaft and Clubhead for Horizontal Hinging." He later says "True "Throw Out" action holds the Clubface in Impact Fix alignment and automatically produces Angled Hinging."

So, do you monitor the clubface and execute horizontal hinging via the #3 PP only as you begin to stress the shaft?

Furthermore, if the laws of physics are the same for Joe Hacker and Tour Pro, how do we end up with different release types/points? If centrifugal force drove the power package to the same point, assuming an in-line condition, how are non-automatic release types not steering?

Thanks!:salut:

You must be reading the 7th edition.

Correct. Is this contradictory to previous editions or is this some of the purported non-Homer verbiage?

Well, I don't like to use those exact words. Yes; to all of the above. Don't tell anyone I told you. :)

True Throwout aligns for Horizontal Hinging

Driveout aligns for Angled Hinging

Interesting . . . where in the 7th does it say True Throw Out Action produces Angled Hinging? That would definitely be a mistake. . .

According to Mr. Kelley you monitor only CLUBHEAD alignments with the Right Hand . . . so you would monitor you Hinge Action via your Left Wrist. So basically to execute Horizontal Hinging you would be holding your Flat Left Wrist vertical to the ground.

I'm not sure if I'm following your Steering reference . . .

On page 73 of the 7th edition, 2nd paragraph.

Bucket - When I use a swinging procedure I have a tendency to flatten my right wrist if I focus on getting the left wrist vertical to the plane. Besides acceleration issues, could this be a result of a lack of axis tilt?

Perhaps this is a different conversation onto itself, but if centrifugal throw out automatically aligns the clubshaft and head for horizontal hinging why do you need to manually trigger it (regarding release points and types)? This seems like a lot of lost power.

When researching this exact topic, I stumbled across this thread. It appears (to me anyway) that the discussion never reached a satisfying conclusion, so if I may be so bold as to re-open the discussion.

In 6-B-3-0 (7th ed) it says
...true Throw-out Action ...aligns Clubshaft and Clubface for Horizontal Hinging
...True "Throw Out" Action ...produces Angled Hinging
(I've been true to the capitalization, quotations, hyphens, etc)

I have been educated on this site that Mr Kelley was very precise in his communication and choice of words so I'm thinking that though the words (in bold) are the same, the meaning is different because of the capitalization and quotation marks.

Any opinions? If I need to correct my 7th edition, I'd appreciate the feedback,

Thanks
3putt

Good find. The 6th edition lists them differently in 6-B-3-0.

Throw Out Action = Horizontal Hinging

Drive Out Action = Angled Hinging

Differences in the lag-loading procedures.

Kevin

2mongoose
 

Are you located near Detroit? I am north about a hour.

Hey Daryl,

Could you explain why Throwout aligns for Horizontal Hinging? I know it does, but I'm not sure if I understand why.

The Left Wrist in the Karate Chop alignment has the Hands Swiveled to the Plane. When Throwout occurs, the right Arm begins to straighten and the Right Hand/Forearm Paddlewheel Action will rotate the Hands on an Axis that's Vertical to the Horizontal Plane. For Hitters, their Left Wrist is Vertical already, so Drive out will rotate the Paddlewheel on an Axis that's vertical to the Angled Plane.

Skipping a rock across the water is the right Forearm and Hand Paddlewheel Action rotating on an Axis that is Vertical to the Horizontal Plane. The big difference between skipping a rock and swinging a club, is that when skipping a rock, the Forearm remains Horizontal to the ground throughout the Paddlewheel motion and in Golf, its moving on an Inclined Plane. So it moves Downplane as it Paddlewheels. It would be like Skipping a Rock underwater down to the bottom of the lake.

Bend your right elbow so that your right forearm is horizontal to the ground. Open your right hand, palm up so the fingers point away from you. Rotate the Forearm to the left, keeping the palm up, until the Fingers almost point to the target. That's Paddlewheel Motion. Now do it with a Bent Right Wrist. Then do it On-Plane. Then do it with your hands gripped together like gripping a club, doing it On-Plane and watching how the Paddlewheel motion of the right hand/Forearm Rolls the Left Wrist.

That is the #3 Accumulator Roll synchronized with or to the Hinge Action for Horizontal Hinging. I know I said that wrong.

Thanks Daryl,

I was expecting a CF related response but this makes more sense, actually.

I think I see a pitch elbow as an underlying theme in your reply.

Would it be to reductionistic to attribute the horizontal hinge to the pitch elbow?

I'm not positive, but the Swivel may be the cause of the Pitched Elbow and not the other way around. Although you can Swivel without Pitching the Elbow. Hmm?

drag or skip
 

Certainly some feel that the club is dragged thru impact. I loved Lynn dragging his pit bull and I have since tried dragging my carolina dog. On the range my club becomes my dog and I drag it!. Now the question is how does this fit in with "cranking the gyroscope", using the "flywheel of the right shoulder", "shoulder throw", "wrist throw" , releasing etc. Doyle drags to both arms straight, Lynn talks about throwing to a position or through a position. Then there is extensor action to think about. I have used all of these successfully in the past to hit it well. But these ideas seem to conflict. If you are swinging, starting with dragging it down plane until centrifugal force throws it out would suggest that dragging would be ending around release and then the pivot would have to keep up in order to maintain pp3 or there would be throwaway. This to me feels more like driving.
Dragging all the way to both arms straight seems to require tension that would impede a relaxed throw out. I come from the west coast TGM tree ie Doyle, McHatton. Their emphasis on dragging, extensor action, flat left wrist, getting the pitch elbow in front of the hip created tension in my arms that prevented a proper release. With the help of Lynn and his "tree" I now feel throw out, but struggle with it. . Now I start dragging with loaded pp3 and pp2 and try to sense a "throwout" and try to hang on to finish maintaining pp3 as long as possible. Skipping to me fits in more with throwing not dragging. Also skipping always implied to me flattening so rock would stay on surface of water where as "underhand throw" always implied a vertical straight down motion. So is underhanded throw and skipping both to occur on the inclined plane. No wonder golf is so difficult. Feels or illusions? I would appreciate your help

You're right. Skipping is not a good analogy. But it does help to introduce the motion of a Paddlewheel.

I have the same problem. Should more focus be placed on the Left Arm for Pulling or the Right Arm where the Forearm and #3 PP are Driven by the Pivot?

For me, under pressure with a 3 wood at 240, the Pivot Drives the Right Forearm and #3 Pressure Point. The Left Arm is a Rope. The Pivot Spins and Throwout uncocks the Left Wrist.

With a Double Wrist Cock, I can Focus entirely on the Left Arm and Pull. But with a Flat Left Wrist, I'm forced to Focus on the Right Forearm. Maybe that's just the Extensor Action forcing my Focus on the Right Forearm Wedge?

7th edition.... i have read this over and over and alwways thought this sounded wierd. "with true throw-out action (no manual clubface manipulation), centrifugal force automatically aligns the clubshaft and clubface for horizontal hinging, regardless of grip being used. ball position for straightaway flight must agree with the amount of hookface designed into the club and is therefore unalterable except with manual override action or adjustment of the plane line. true "throw out" action holds the clubface in impact fix alignment and automatically produces angled hinging, regardless of lag loading procedure, vertical hinging is a deliberate manual manipulation."

so it seems that for centrifugal force he describes it as throw-out action
and for linear force application he also describes it as "throw out" action, maybe referring to the right arm throw making it still a THROW out action but to use the same words is a mistake. i realize this is not homers original verbiage

Please see post #9 in this thread. I thought your question looked familiar! :laughing9

Kevin

right, just expanding on the reasoning behind using the same words to describe different actions.