Nice Bobby Jones stuff . ..
 

Didn't read the analysis but the pics are cool.

http://www.hickorygolfers.com/swings...ones/index.htm

He looks good from Top on down.

The Best of His Time -- Let's Discuss!
 

Great stuff, Rich. Thanks!

Let's discuss this truly great Golf Stroke . . . starting with the Grip.

Let the games begin!

:salut:

Grip. It's hard to tell, but I'm going with "Weak Single Action". Plane Shift during Backstroke. Turns. 10-18-A at End of Backswing.

Weak Single Action Grip
10-18-A Left Wrist Action. It's hard to see, His right wrist is rolled.
Flat Shoulder turn

I don't know.

Check out the index too . .. there are some other great pictures in there of some of the Old Old Hick'ry School Swings. Really good website.

Jones looks like Freddy to me with the OPPOSITE LOOP.











Couples hands out and up quick . . . Jones hands in and back quick . . .

Couples and Jones both True Swingy looking . . .

Both have it "across the line" with a Bent Left Wrist and go to Top End.

Both Bend and Cock the Left Wrist out of Follow Through rather than Swivel.

Both have centered heads.

Both have a relatively steep backstroke shoulder turn.

Jones'in' for it . . .

I like photo 6 in the sequence on :-http://www.hickorygolfers.com/swings/bobbyjones/index.htm

Looks really balanced, great leg action, and no extreme axis tilt. I think that once i discovered concept of axis tilt...I started to overdo it...and then you feel the strain !

Bobby looks great!no need to overdo it!

Intuitive Genius + Stuart Maiden
 

I like Bobby's knee action. Standard, right? I think straightening the knee helps get your right glute behind, el squatto helps the "down." Similar to the sweetest of them all...the Slammer!

Jones
 

Because of his emphatic hip turn going back, he learned to "come over the top" just a bit to get back on plane.

Now how in the blue blazes does someone learn to do that?

That level of learning and mastery of all it entails is stunning. No Swingvison. Hickories. Plus fours.

Bobby Jones..........you were something else!:salut:

UPP in snowy and freezing Ohio

Why do you think people come over it?

Get over it
 

To clarify, when I see the distance between the right shoulder and the stance line closing prior to the club swinging through, I define that as starting to come over the top. As I tried to say before, Jones hip and shoulder turn were so large, that he had to come over it a little to get his swing back to an effective path.

Did I say effective? Devastating would be more like it.

In his era, he was clearly one of a kind. What kind? The finest kind!

UPP in cold Ohio

Why do you think people come over it? Seriously . . .

Not PULLING.(SWINGERS)
Too quick(HITTERS)
Because they want to (Bucket)
Seriously.....

Grip type
 

10-2-C V/R/T is my vote for Grip -Type. Let the component checklist continue, it could be a great lesson for us all.:golf:

Exactly! They WANT to . . . but . . . again WHY??? Why do they want to? What would the benefits to them be?

Under, Over ad Out
 

They may "want" to be actually they "need" to. Players that take it back "under" the plane need to return "over". This is making me dizzy.:eyes:

Ok well let me ask it this way . ..

What happens when you come over it a little?

What is "it"
 

In the words of possibly the next "First Man" of the United States, "It" depends on what you mean by "it". He is only returning the club, via plane shift, on a plane which is over the plane of the backstroke. If you only look at the sequence beginning with startdown, I can't see him coming over anything. He is also, from the camera angle, quite closed to his target. So is he swinging using a 10-5E?

Forget about Jones for a second . . . why do most hackers end up coming over the top? And when YOU come over it what happens to the ball?

Overswinging,not starting down with the lower body,right forearm too high,etc.
Then they don't know they are reverse rolling to stop hooking it off the planet.
So you end up with a slice ,pull or hook depending on the hinge you use.
Actually we could probably write a book on this subject.:golf:

Why are Bucket and Mike O "over the top"?:naughty:

Most hackers come over the top for many reasons, one being poor pivot and lack of any axis tilt. Their right shoulder comes out instead of down. Without any hip slide they produce no axis tilt. Many times they are trying to control the clubface and they have uneducated hands. As far as when I come over the top the ball starts left and then depends on clubface alignments after that.

A/ Not understanding the work of the (whole) right arm.

B/ I dont!

Do what? With my what?
 

They don't understand axis tilt. Everything is moving so fast (downswing blackout) that a 2 inch bump is too fine of a movement at that stage. That right shoulder is itching to do something...they are trying to hit it
"straight" so everything moves left.

Speaking of over the top!
 

The worst move I ever saw was a guy that came over the top so much so that he did indeed miss the ball...his club got stuck in the ground then rebounded straight left and hit his ankle...man down...no kidding. I would have helped him up but I was doubled over at the time:laughing9 Same guy...same day... super-toed one that hit a tee marker causing the rest of us to hit the dirt! Company scramble tournaments can be dangerous:confused1

how about........
 

How about they don't maintain a flat left wrist, have lost their clubhead lag pressure point and they fail to trace a straight plane line. Just a guess though :happy3:

Have you ever hit the ball hard coming over the top?

over and down captain
 

perhaps since the over the top move has more "down" to it. The "down" adds more pressure to the ball......

Ahhh . . . . Why does it have more down?

more and less
 

more down with less out. more down because of less axis tilt. less axis tilt because of little parallal to target line hip action on startdown. pivot controlled hands perhaps? Am I getting warmer, Bucket?

What does it mean as far as body parts go to have "less axis tilt"? I'm not sure you're getting warmer because I ain't exactly sure where we're gonna end up :happy3:

Perhaps
 

Perhaps where Mr. Bucket is trying to lead.......is that a little over the top produces a powerful shot a la Snead ........and moreso Mr. Jones. More power, possilby, but at what cost, especially to us mortals?

UPP in really freezing Ohio

What does that mean TastyFreeze?

That could be what I'm saying. . . but define "over the top"?

Whoa there.........
 

Bucks,

Whoa there, pardner. You seemed to know what it was in your own post #10 on this thread. Next thing you will be wanting to define observation vs. perception of reality and stuff like that. Deep. Too Deep.

I still want to know what you meant by alignments when you started this thread. Please refrain from answering questions with more questions.

Thanks,

UPP in still freezing Ohio

Ok there's no debating me being marginally retarded . . . but I went back and read #10 I asked you "why do people come over it?"

I think you were the one that said he came over it. I was just asking what that means.

I think its necessary to define over the top in relation to what plane line. In Bobby Jones case I don't think over the top is exactly accurate. His takeaway/backstroke is way inside, more like a 10-5-E plane line. To come down on that plane he would have to continue with the rotated plane line and swing to right field, with his downstroke pivot motion being parallel to that line. Instead, he allows his left arm to shift out so he could come down on plane in relation to his setup.

Now, I think the problem hackers have with their 'over the top' move is that it is truly over the top. They start down and get above the original plane but try to make their motion in relation to their original plane therefore bending their delivery line. How about if after they made this move they allowed the plane line to shift to the left and made their delivery along this plane line, complete with pivot parallel to that line.

Yes sir . . . he's basically shifting his hands out and using the original 10-5-A (right?) plane line.

I like the analysis in the 2nd paragraph . . . can you think of a pro that maybe does that? Craig Perry? Leeky?