Just plane confused!
 

I'm new to TGM and enjoying every minute of this forum. I'm hoping to get some help to get over a rough spot so I don't get bogged down and frustrated too early in the process.

The book is organized in such a way that concepts are revisited multiple times. Often times, these "revisits" don't always seem consistent, or at least I don't leave with the same interpretation each time. One in particular - the inclined plane - I just can't seem to get my head around. Here is a sampling of what I read, and what I perceive as mixed messages:

2-F The full length of the clubshaft remains unwaveringly on the face of this inclined plane - waggle to follow-through

7-6 clubshaft must start its journey on the plane of its address. It may or may not move to other planes as it travels

7-7 ...it is not always possible or advisable to adhere to a single inclined plane classification throughout the entire stroke

10-6b any plane angle shift is very hazardous
immediately followed by 10-7a thru h which documents plane angle shift variations (i guess they can't be that hazardous after all!)

So in these snippets, I get mixed messages - sometimes I read stick on one inclined plane....any shift is hazardous. Other reference rationalize (and even recommend) plane angle shifts. Evidently, I am not reading these in the proper context (after all, TGM has withstood alot greater scrutiny than mine) Would someone care to offer where I have gone wrong on my interpretation?

Thanks

Hi,

It is imperative to understand that there is an ideal and there is a practical aspect to the golf swing.

Ideally...We should all swing with a zero shift, on plane swing.

Practically...Not all of us had the privilege of learning the golf swing the TGM way, so many habits are ingrained which when corrected may do more harm than good. How so?

Try to make Jim Furyk change his grip and his plane shifts. I promise you, he won't be holding onto his world ranking for long.

I'm responding to 3putt's post. My comments are in bold.

*******************************************

I'm new to TGM and enjoying every minute of this forum. I'm hoping to get some help to get over a rough spot so I don't get bogged down and frustrated too early in the process.

Welcome to the best website in golfdom. Getting bogged down means that you have to allow the incubator to humm for a while! Keep at it if you like precision and power!

The book is organized in such a way that concepts are revisited multiple times. Often times, these "revisits" don't always seem consistent, or at least I don't leave with the same interpretation each time. One in particular - the inclined plane - I just can't seem to get my head around. Here is a sampling of what I read, and what I perceive as mixed messages:

Make sure that you read the preface. Homer Kelley recommends several ways to tackle the book, ignore at your own peril!


2-F The full length of the club shaft remains unwaveringly on the face of this inclined plane - waggle to follow-through

Read the last paragraph of 2-F. Make sure you know what “on plane” is. This is one of the most disputed aspects of golf…hence your plane confusion!


7-6 club shaft must start its journey on the plane of its address. It may or may not move to other planes as it travels

There are five identified planes 10-6-A, B,C,D,E. Although the angles are different the baseline of the plane does not change. Check out the animations in The Gallery for a visual on that.


7-7 ...it is not always possible or advisable to adhere to a single inclined plane classification throughout the entire stroke

Some people like to shift plane angles. Hogan had a double shift 10-7-C (elbow--turned shoulder---elbow…2 shifts)


10-6b any plane angle shift is very hazardous
immediately followed by 10-7a thru h which documents plane angle shift variations (i guess they can't be that hazardous after all!)

Turned shoulder plane with zero shift I think is the gateway to economic golf i.e. fewest moving parts, but psychological needs must be met!

So in these snippets, I get mixed messages - sometimes I read stick on one inclined plane....any shift is hazardous. Other reference rationalize (and even recommend) plane angle shifts. Evidently, I am not reading these in the proper context (after all, TGM has withstood alot greater scrutiny than mine) Would someone care to offer where I have gone wrong on my interpretation?


You may have missed the “Big Picture” of the book. It in no way will support THE WAY antics, but it is there to help develop an effective MY WAY. Homer Kelley was a gentleman and seldom let the cat out of the bag as to his pet favorites. Lynn Blake knows! There are 144 catalogued “correct” ways to do 24 components. 10 trillion options. 50% hitting, 50% swinging. Your stroke pattern is in there somewhere, in fact working through the variations within the 24 components you will identify things like your current knee action etc. The point is to eliminate component that come with baggage i.e. the need for compensating moves

This is what has worked for me. I have read every word that Yoda has written on this site, especially his posts organized according to the chapters of the book. I have watched all of the stuff in the gallery multiple times. Let’s put it this way I feel like I know the people featured in these video clips! My all time favorites are:

1. Dowels and Wedges
2. Hinge Action 1&2
3. The Tom Tomasello vids are a great primer (he had a knack for breaking it down)

I have benefited from many of the posters. There are some epic posters here! One in particular! Knowledge with levity! My mistake was lurking for as long as I did. Post! post! post!


Good luck, this site will treat you right!

Re-read the first three sentences of the second paragraph. The clubshaft plane and the 'sweetspot' plane are not the same thing.

"The" plane is not the clubshaft. Focus on what the hands do and their travel.

I don't think I have missed the big picture. I extensively used the forums, videos, animations, etc prior to actually getting into the book proper. Many threads dealt with the "newbies" introduction to TGM so I think I entered with an appropriate mindset.

Back to the swing plane.....there are really 2 points I was hoping to make:

1) the book is not an easy read. And taken in isolation some points can appear conflicting (please tell me I am not the only one who thinks this!). So I am very curious to hear how others have dealt with this and not just given up

2) Technically I am struggling with some geometry concepts (my incubator is actually overheating) of how the clubshaft can remain on plane AND the #3 accumulator can be maintained AND the chosen hinging can be maintained AND wrist cock can be done ALL AT THE SAME TIME.

I'm not looking for the magic bullet or the simplistic answer. I know I can work through it. I guess I am looking for some solidarity from others on this web site who hopefully can empathize and encourage me to get through the rough spots, and maybe provide a tip or two along the way.

Thanks again.

It is a process and a difficult one, but you have come to the right place to get it clarified. In the end, the question is what do you need to understand to make your action better.

To your journey,

Matt

You are correct . . .the book AIN'T easy. Homer was a pretty good writer but he was very ambitious to get it all said and said just one time so the book wouldn't be 800 pages long. The earlier editions were only around 130 to 150 pages long. I think the 3rd edition was the first to incorporate cross referencing.

Now let's tackle your second question . . .

First you have several things to consider conceptually to get one of the more difficult questions that people have asked . . .

So FIRST the Inclined Plane . . .

This ain't a very difficult one to get you can have 3 types of Basic Planes as Homer described them (Horizontal, Vertical, and Inclined). There is only 1 Horizontal and 1 Vertical right? But inbetween there is infinite Inclined (angled like a roof) Planes.

Next, the Sweetspot of the golf club (not the shaft for Homer's purposes) moves on the Inclined Plane. And for conceptual purposes let's say that the path that the Sweetspot travels on is a Circle. That circle is inscribed on the Inclined Plane.

Now that we got a circle on the plane, we must determine the center of that circle . . . which Homer said was the left shoulder. So imagine a ball down there on the ground on the plane. The sweetspot is traveling down and out and forward ON-PLANE. (Remember the a vertical plane would only have DOWN and UP. A horizontal plane would only have IN and OUT). Since we are on an Inclined Plane the clubmoves in 3 dimensions (Down, Out, and Forward ALL ON PLANE).

So imagine the club and sweetspot traveling down and out on plane and then touching the ball. Through that point Homer drew a line parallel to the ground from the Impact Point and named it the Impact Plane Line. The club and its sweetspot CONTINUE Down and Out ON PLANE AFTER IMPACT POINT UNTIL THE SWEETSPOT REACHES ITS LOWEST POINT----OPPOSITE THE LEFT SHOULDER THE CENTER OF THE STROKE. From the lowest point Homer drew a line and called it the LOW POINT PLANE LINE. For an iron shot the Low Point Plane Line is actually UNDERGROUND. So ALL STROKES SHOULD BE DRIVEN THROUGH IMPACT POINT AND CONTINUE DOWN AND OUT ON PLANE THROUGH LOW POINT.

After low point since the arms are connected to the shoulders the club begins to trave UP AND IN ON PLANE . . . but he effort is still down.

So that is the basics of the Geometry of the Circle.

So to your question . . . . for the club to be on plane the end of the club lowest to the ground POINTS AT THE PLANE LINE (Impact Plane Line) otherwise when the club is parallel to the ground it is parallel to the plane line. You can practice this with a laser gizmo or a two flashlights taped together or the club or a dowel. Get used to your hands pointing at the plane line down on the ground thru the entire stroke.

To get into the hand motions you are inquiring about . . . it is best to isolate the independently.

1. The #2 Accumlator - Cocking and Uncocking the Left Wrist. This is a HAMMERING MOTION. So grab a hammer slap your left had on it as if you were gripping a club. Now just hammer your desk or something. That is how the cocking and uncocking works in isolation on a VERTICAL PLANE. Fiddle with your grip on the hammer. Notice how if you grip it "weaker" your left wrist cock and uncocks and the wrist remains FLAT. Now if you grip it "strong" with your left palm Turned more on top of the hammer there is BENDING of the wrist with the Cocking and Uncocking. See how that works?

But this is on a Vertical Plane and we play golf on what??? An INCLINED PLANE. So grab your golf club with your left hand only. Go somewhere where you have a straight line to guide you. Stand to the line as if it were your target line (but if you are going to be a Machine cat it's the Plane Line). Now do your Left Wrist Cocking and Uncocking TO THAT PLANE LINE . . . while keeping the end of the club closest to the ground POINTING AT THE PLANE LINE. Cock it up On-Plane point at the Plane Line. Uncock it On-Plane to the Plane Line. Monkey with the "strong" Left Hand and the "weak" Left Hand grip. Notice how the "weak" grip requires Turning and Rolling of the hand to keep the club On-Plane? Notice how with the "strong" grip how the motion HAS TO BE DIFFERENT with the hands to keep the club pointing at the line as you cock and uncock?

Now for the #3 Accumulator. This is kind of a toughie to get. Go get your book and turn to chapter 4. Look at the picture in that chapter of LEVEL. Notice how it is REALLY close to UNCOCKED? The #3 Accumulator Angle is the angle between the club and the left arm . . . . WHEN THE LEFT WRIST IS IN ITS LEVEL CONDITION. Why LEVEL you may be thinking? Because ALL ALIGNMENTS ARE DERIVED FROM IMPACT. And at Impact the Left Wrist according to Homer should be Flat, LEVEL and Vertical. Flat Level and Vertical for a "weak" grip . . . which Homer called a Strong Grip but that's another post. For the "strong" grip . . . the Impact conditions for the Left Wrist are Flat LEVEL and Turned. Remember how your wrist worked when it was "strong?"

So basically to go fully Down and Out on Plane . . . you are uncocking your left wrist to impact to its Level condition. From Impact to low point you are still going DOWN AND OUT ON PLANE. The Left Wrist is in its Level condition and that #3 Accumulator Angle we set up earlier is Rolled with the "weak" grip from Impact Point to Low Point while you point at the line. All the while you are STILL UNCOCKING YOUR LEFT WRIST ON PLANE POINTING AT THE LINE.

So the #3 Accumulator basically is Turning and Rolling that #3 Accumulator Angle set between the club and the left arm when the left wrist is in its LEVEL impact condition. So just turn and roll while pointing the club at the plane line. AND you do all that while cocking and uncocking the left wrist.

Whew . . . any of that crap make sense? Are asleep yet?

Bucket #1 just racked up a huge number of YodaMiles. Good thing too because your alter-ego Bucket #2 was running you into the negative. I was about to put a lien on your trailer house.

You have to have a helluva lot of YodaMiles for the school to come to you!

Hey 12 Piece.... wow and many thanks for your time put into the response. I feel a little bad that you had to regress so far on my behalf. But I do appreciate it and you did tweak some new thought patterns that I need to take to the incubator.

No problem dude . . . here's how all that looks . . . Fire away with any questions.

I've been here 2 years (minus 3 days) and Bucket's post was very insightful for me. Never feel bad for being where you are in your development. Only through accepting where you are can you truly evaluate where you need to improve.

Bucket ,that is about your 3rd post that made any sense!

. . . 3rd one Daryl read to you . . . Jackson's Hole . . . Please.

I just wanted to know in the first sketch- Where are the golfer's legs? :golf:

Behind the circle aka paper colored pane of glass

That's an artist's sketch of Daryl when he unsuccessfully tried to stick his foot in his mouth . . . he got confused because he was holding the mirror wrong. He kept muttering . . . it looked just like me . . . I must have a twin . . .

Damn
 

MRO DOCK- That's no fun! I guess Bucket is right - just one more lame azz post from Mike O!

Well, at least it was inspired by something even more lame . . . as much as I don't enjoy criticizing myself. How are you hitting 'em these days?

Hopefully something above might add to your confusion - I mean clarification.

No swing'm
 

If you want to insult Ted then go ahead but don't insult me- Hit'm Come ON! :)

I usually always play and practice- maybe not that good but I'm always trying to get better. However, over the last three months haven't touched a club. I have been busy at work and looking at moving to Maine- so I've been stressed 24/7 with business, real estate and personal stuff. Lately I lined most of it up and got it on the tracks - Hence, these wacky posts to release some stress!

Now, the important thing is the tournament and the rules for lining up a partner- Lynn any rules? I know I said Scramble last time but that was a mistake- Best Ball! We'll need an LBG traveling trophy(s) for the year - one for each player of the winning team! It should be one big motha trofy - I might suggest that we have one full time Hitting team- just so we can make fun of them later at the bar.

California to Maine, are you sick?

Sicko
 

Of course I am- read my posts!

Not so hot . . . he keeps forgetting to take the headcovers off his irons.

"Personal stuff" . . . man the problems here are without limit . . . now . . . I'm scared. I mean is it crabs? A rash? Decomposing bodies? Peanut butter and dogs? Farm porn?

wow.

Frikkin' Rainman
 

That was "cut and paster" post you gave 3putt, Bucket! I may be able to beat you @$$, but I would pay to take a lesson from you.:laughing9 As long as you don't make my 10-2-B a 10-2-D! :naughty:

Just to make sure
 

Sorry if I came off a bit crossways. I mistook your apparent "contradictions" as a misunderstanding that there are 144 component variations out there, explaining why Homer seems to say do this...and you can also do that etc.

Bucket saw you right though. That info alone could turn conventional golf instruction on its ear!

Good luck 3putt!

My impersonaton of 12 piece Bucket
 

Bucket’s reply has inspired me. Here is an attempt to put into words my thought processes when evaluating the plane in the context of TGM, at least through startup and backstroke. If I’m way off base, then it’s good to know now and get out before causing irreparable damage. So at great risk to my self-worth, here goes:

The post is on the longer side. Consider yourself forewarned

For simplicity (now ain’t that an oxy-moron on this site!) lets envision a golfer at “address”, zero accumulator #3, FLV left “wrist”. So clubshaft and left forearm in a straight line resting on an inclined plane. An awful lot like 1-L. For purposes of this discussion, lets not quibble over clubshaft vs sweetspot planes, impact vs lowpoint plane lines, etc (unless of course this causes me to draw incorrect conclusions)

First, hinging. For pure horizontal hinging, the clubhead would transcribe a perfect circle on the ground. Now this is a particularly un-golflike motion and doesn’t conform to 2-F so other than academic and illustrative purposes, has no value (other than maybe a short putt). Same thing for pure vertical hinging where the clubhead would trace a perfect circle on a plane perpendicular to the ground. Angle hinging transcribes a perfect circle on the inclined plane, starts to look more like a golf motion. There is only one incline that conforms to 2F and this is the incline that the clubshaft rests on at “address”

For brevity (another oxymoron considering this post!), I’ll stick with horizontal hinging. Let’s add a vertical component to horizontal hinging (dual horizontal hinging) so now the shaft rides up an inclined plane. Again, this is a very golf-like motion and there is only one incline that conforms to 2F and this is the incline that the clubshaft rests on at “address”

Now I add accumulator #3 (applies to a good portion of my golf game). For the same ball position, hands are lower and clubshaft plane at address is flatter than above. If I run through the same dual horizontal hinging logic as above, I come up with the same conclusion - there is only one incline that conforms to 2F and this is the incline that the clubshaft rests on at “address”

Much of my golf game employs accumulator #2, so let’s add introduce some wristcock. When employing dual horizontal hinging with or without accumulator #3, any amount of wristcock immediately violates the inclined plane per 2-F (I have trouble understanding 10-18-C). Therefore, I need a degree of freedom. In my view, I need to let go of horizontal hinging (and its requirement for a vertical left wrist) and introduce wrist turn. Now, I don’t have a physical or virtual machine to study the geometry but I believe that coordinated, synchronized wrist cock/wrist turn will maintain the clubshaft on plane (what I see in my mind’s eye is that as I hinge up along the inclined plane, an increment of wrist cock puts clubshaft above plane and a coordinated wrist turn puts it right back on plane, another increment of wrist cock, another increment of wrist turn, …..). Furthermore, I believe that when perfectly coordinated/synchronized, the clubshaft again follows the incline that it rested upon at “address”. What I find very interesting is that it is tough to do consciously but effortless when you let your mind and body take over. This coordinated wrist cock/wrist turn can occur early, late, or uniformly over the duration of the backswing.

So far…..no plane shifts.

Now, when contemplating the wrist turn, I had a thought. It not possible to have wrist cock without wrist turn (remember, I assumed a vertical wrist at the start) BUT it is possible to have wrist turn without wrist cock. So following through this mental image, I see in my mind’s eye is that as I hinge up along the inclined plane, an increment of wrist turn drops the clubshaft below plane. I then would need to adjust my hands to a more vertical incline to get the shaft back pointing a the plane line. Is this the mysterious PLANE SHIFT that started this whole thread??? Following it to the extreme, if I continue turning my wrist, my hand will continue to rise to a steeper and steeper incline, UP TO THE INCLINE IT WOULD HAVE OCCUPIED IN THE ZERO ACCUMUATOR #3 SCENARIO. At that point, wrist cock is free – cock the wrists freely as the hands zip up the plane to the top of the backstroke.

At the risk of blowing this completely out of the water, one does not need to go all the way to the theoretical “zero accumulator #3” plane –at any incline in between one could switch over to the coordinated wrist cock/wrist turn procedure on that plane. Whatever satisfies you personally.

One thing not mentioned so far is shoulder turn. This is yet another disruption or complication to the path of the primary lever or left arm flying wedge as it is riding up the inclined plane. Again, I do not have a real or virtual machine to study the intricacies of the geometry but I believe that the wrist cock/wrist turn/plane shift adjustments work the same way for a stationary left shoulder as well as a rotating left shoulder. Of course the adjustments are different, but they achieve the same end goal of being able to keep the clubshaft on plane at various inclines that share the same plane line.

In my mind, I have convinced myself that it is indeed possible to have the clubshaft remain on plane AND maintain the #3 accumulator AND cock the wrists ALL AT THE SAME TIME (I do have to relax my impression that horizontal hinging is in effect for the entire swing in order to permit wrist turn. If I view it as more of an impact phenomenon, then I have mental consistency about how things fit together)

Anyway, there you have it - the crap according to 3putt.

Are you planning on attending the Seminar? :)

There's a lot in here . . . you put a lot of thought into it. You got some concepts mixed up. But props to you for taking it on. It's unfortunate that the book doesn't come with a video. I could take you through a bunch of this stuff, but it would make a HUGE thread.

You should attend a seminar assuming you have the interest and the $. But if not ask plenty of questions. You seem to be mixed up on how Hinging works.

Do a search in the archives on Hinge Action. They are organized by Chapters in the book. So take a look at the Chapters where you are having trouble visualizing and conceptualizing the material. Search that in the main forum and the archives. For the most part the entire book has been tackled.

You are having some issues with Grip Type, the #3 Accumulator (the angle and how it works), and Wrist Action/Hand Action.

I'd say we need to start with your grip type because that is going to have a huge impact on how your hands HAVE to move during the Release Motions.

How do you have your hand on the club pop intruction "strong" or pop instruction "weak"? See the pics on 10-2-B vs 10-2-D grip types.

Report back and we'll get you started.

Mr. 3Put

Bucket is correct. However, when you get to "the Endless Belt effect" do yourself a favor and let me know. Bucket is pretty weak in that area. :)

don't make me get my belt.

The Lone Ranger
 

Whoa!

Who was that Masked Man?

:salut:

If you are "visual", do not forget about looking at the gallery....

http://www.lynnblakegolf.com/gallery...ry.php?cat=517

When I cannot get through to the student......I´ll introduce them to Yoda....:laughing9 :salut:

Props to you? Pop instruction?

Seminar??? Love to but it aint gonna happen.

I'm not sure grip type is the issue just quite yet. Interestingly, when pulling together my thoughts, I never even touched a club. Just used a dowel in my right hand (I'm a left handed golfer) and actually put my left hand behind my back while simulating "the machine". As I mentioned, my wrist was vertical (pictures 4-C-1 and 4-B-1 would be good visuals)

In retrospect, I could have talked about the golfers flail 2-K#5 Vertical wrist motion rather than try to relate it to a swing.

Hey, I hope I didn't screw something up when translating - I wrote it as if I was a right handed golfer (you guys aren't used to having to flip every fifth word written:) !

For a RIGHT-handed golfer, the RIGHT forearm and clubshaft rest on the inclined plane. Hence, "the magic of the RIGHT forearm".

oops, sort of
 

I actually did mean LEFT forearm. But I was actually referring to the entire arm, not just the forearm.

The Mittens have it!
 

I'm not sure grip type is the issue just quite yet.

Hands to pivot...hands are the command post...the grip is always an issue (maybe not THE issue) As Bucket suggested, grip type has a trickle down effect. Homer liked the 10-2-B cuz all of the pressure points (except # 4) are on a line extending from the sweetspot. This to me is the first distinction between position and alignment golf. Sure a good grip looks a certain way...but what specific alignments combined make a generally good looking grip (popular instruction - Golf Digest grip.)

I like the way you have jumped into all of this...few are brave enough right off the bat!

One last kick at the cat
 

This is my last post on this thread unless something really burns me.

Forget about a human golfer for a minute. So there are no hands and therefore no grip.

Go to Mathews animation 422-1-L_Hinges_LBG (I'm not sure how to post the link). Stop it at the 2 sec mark. Cock the "wrists" (its not drawn on there but imagine a hinge pin half way down the arm....just like the golfers flail 2-K#5 Vertical wrist motion)

As soon as you cock the wrist, the clubshaft no longer points as the plane line. That is what I have been trying to say all along. How do you horizontal hinge and cock your wrists and stay on plane all at the same time? I tried to rationalize it with wrist turn (I think Yoda has also referred to it as startup swivel)

So there are only 3 paths forward:
a) someone acknowledges my point.
b) someone tells me why I am wrong (please!!!)
c) I call enough enough and move on from TGM, being all the wiser for what I have learned the last month.

Thanks.

I sense some confusion re: horizontal hinge. A concept that is easily confused.

I agree with bucket, also some confusion re: #3 accumulator.

The simplest way to understand the horizontal hinge is to first see that it is a hinge motion, like a door, that relates to the left shoulder.

Hold your arm straight out in front of you, back of the hand towards your target. With no turning/rolling, move your arm back and forth like a door, like a lighthouse beam, from the left shoulder.

That is a horizontal hinge motion of the left wrist. It remains verticle to the ground.

Confusion comes in when you take that same relationship of the wrist to ground and put it on an inclined plane. You don't change how it relates to the ground, it is still moving (and in my view 'feels') like it is verticle to the ground, even though it is now on an inclined plane where it will be turning and rolling to maintain that verticle relationship. Viewed from overhead it is still a 'lighthouse' beam.

Do the same drill as before, but stop at any point and lower the hand down to the inclined plane. Notice it will look and perhaps feel like it is turned or rolled, but nothing has changed relative to the left shoulder, and the ground.