A common argument, what side do you fall on?
 

I have often heard the argument where one person argues that any swing that makes it on the PGA Tour is a good way to swing the golf club and when there are components of swings that show up again and again then those are obviously even more important. The contrary viewpoint is the person that doesn't possess the tour pros's time or talent cannot rely on what the pros do in order to obtain a swing philosophy/methodology. Much like most of us probably cannot use MIT professors techniques for solving advanced math problems, lack the talent and the time to learn.

I wonder if both sides are wrong to an extent. For my argument I will consider an average golfer (about a 20 handicap) trying to break into the single digit ranks. I think they would be silly to try and copy a tour players swing, or even come up with a composite of several very effective pros swings. On the other hand, I don't think that what the pros do should be completely thrown out. The question really isn't whether someone can do what the pros do with a lot of practice, but what path or direction is the person going toward. I think Homer Kelley had the best answer of all. Eliminate the snares and improve the 3 imperatives. In this way, you are doing working toward a tour quality swing but you do not have to be boggled down in interpreting whether something is simply a mannerism or a fundamental. Further, by working on one problem at a time you are not taking on more than you can handle, so you might be able to play fairly well during a swing change and while heading down a path that will lead to a much more fundamentally correct golf swing.

I am curious what other people think of this debate. If some swing is on tour does that make it right? Or are these men and women so talented that they could strike the ball extremely well swinging in a phone booth.

Matt

Impact. Everything in the golf swing comes down to impact. Impact. You can get there a thousand different ways, but Impact is what separates a great ball striker from a hack.

A PGA pro is a very good ball striker, but he's a great, very great Golfer.

People need to learn to pivot and move their arms & hands in such a way that allows them to control where the club bottoms out . . . then it becomes a game of controlling the face . . . .

Great content and concise

Daryl,

I respectfully disagree. Having taught thousands of beginners, impact is what causes them to fail, in a sense it is steering. I think the fact that Homer did not make it a station means that we should never try to create impact, only use it as analyses of the motion. Address, top, finish, in that order with no wobble and in balance. When I teach students to pass through finish on plane with lag pressure, impact takes care of itself.

As far as tour pros go, use what is good and disregard the rest. Once again, Focus on the the triad and you can't go wrong.

So true.... a very good ball striker and a very great Golfer (which to me means a great putter, with a great short game and a "great mind" that allows him to play at that level).

I continue to be amazed at the quality of shots that are made at what has arguably become the biggest stage in golf.... the Ryder Cup. The fact that these humans can "step it up" like they do tells me they posess something that I am unable to relate to.

CG

I think the average golfer would improve overnight if they committed to using acquired motion on the course until they could consistently trace a straight plane line, maintain lag, and employ a consistent hinge action. Until acquired motion is easy there is no sense in overcomplicating the swing. Besides, one can hit it very near the same distance, maybe even further for the average golfer by employing an acquired motion with solid contact and WITHOUT overaccelerating.

Have you all gone MAD? Yes, the beginners fail at Impact, otherwise they'd all be Pro's. :)

mrodock,

Don't tell Bucket that. It's gibberish. :laughing9

I'm going to CAll Yoda Directly. I'm going to have "Reserved" seats and Name Tags for the Day-before-TGM-cram-session. I got 4 more names just from this thread only. :)

Coordinating the arm swing with the pivot is gibberish?

If I make it to the school I imagine I'll have more to learn than anyone else in attendance so I don't take it as an insult!

:) Don't take anything I say to you as an insult. But telling someone it's a matter of Coordinating the arm swing with the pivot is like telling someone, "Just Open the door and Jump out, then at 2100 feet, simply pull that little cord hanging down your left shoulder.

Telling someone to coordinate arm swing and pivot? What do you teach them with Zero Pivot? What swings the arms? :) :)

Do you understand that it's gibberish? Ok. Pivot right to left at 8 MPH, then swing your arms at 40 mph and coordinate them so that the clubhead arrives to the ball at 110 mph with a square clubface with a down, out and forward path. Lesson over. Pay me $1000.00 :laughing9

Opiate of the Masses
 

When novices get the idea that the base of the plane line is the low point plane line, and that with the exception of putter/driver low point is under the ground...then the lights begin to brighten. Understanding low point becomes the high point!

I took what Bucket said as what he would teach an average player rather than how he would instruct them to do it. The shoulders move the arms, but no shot requires zero pivot.

I would want a student to keep his arms more tied into his body as illustrated in Five Lessons the Modern Fundamentals of Golf p. 82-83.

I wouldn't simply rely on a verbal discussion of what should be done, rather, I would demonstrate and make alterations as necessary to the student's technique.

NO!!!

Hacks- hack at the ball with impact (hitting the ball) their only concearn

Amateurs- create motion with the HOPE of impact and straight ballflight

Pros- create the motion they KNOW will create the proper impact alignments for the ballflight they wish produce

Pro's and other great players simply know how to control the CLUBSHAFT, CLUBHEAD, AND THE CLUBFACE in order to produce the desired ball flight. Hinge action goes well beyond impact and controlls ballflight. Focus on the end result and you will find impact becomes better.

daryl is my FAVORITE cat on the forum. . . that boy will fight a tree.

Maestro,

You know how much I like you, and I know you're a great Golfer, but:

Nothing is more important than impact. Impact is the language the Ball understands. It’s doesn’t speak French. If you ask it nicely to fly straight and land 285 yards in the center of the fairway, it won’t understand you.

The ball is not your buddy. If you want it to go somewhere, then you must whack it a particular way. The BALL ONLY UNDERSTANDS IMPACT. It really doesn’t care how pretty your Golf swing, or what kind of car you drive.

It’s non-discriminatory. It doesn’t care how tall or short or thin or fat you are. It doesn’t care if it gets whacked with a 400.00 new Nike Driver or a 30 year old persimmon Hagan Wood driver with a D4 Swing weight and extra stiff shaft.

It doesn't care if you use 2,3 or 4 barrels nor if you angle or horizontal hinge with 10-2-B or 10-2-D. Do you Swivel? The ball couldn't care less.

If you can’t talk IMPACT, then the ball won’t do what you want it to do. And it don't care what you say if you can't say it the right way. :) :)

The ball speaks in three dimensions. Here is what to say, Down, Out and Forward, and here is how you say it: Simultaneously.

It's a genetic flaw. I should have been a Hitter. Axe Handle.
:)

Bucket?
 

Bucket, This guy is starting to frighten me! Another one of your alter ego's I suppose. Why don't you come out of the closet? Go ahead just make your list- let me start. I'm sure their are a few that would surprise some people

Bucket is also:
Bagger Lance
UPP
ChrisNZ
KOC
Ecox
ThinkingPlus

But seriously Bucket- Have you and Ecox started a list of excuses when you lose to my partner and I? Well have ya? It's going to be a beating!!!:violent:

This is a tough group. :)

Read the book
 

From the preface, "It's not instant perfection but continuous progress toward a practical goal-mastery of the STAR SYSTEM TRIAD: the Three Imperatives applying the three functions through the three stations which should be sought."

I agree that impact is what the ball responds to, but I will maintain that how it gets through there is more important. Remember we can't teach positions and impact is a postion, one point along the swing. Teach players to keep moving smoothly to the finish and impact will take care of itself. Impact is for monitoring how well everything is working.

Wow
 

These guys are GOOD! :salut:

UPP in snowing Ohio

I agree with golfgnome. Here is why.

I started my study of TGM 3 yrs. ago. Flat left wrist, flat left wrist....that was all that I heard it seemed, so I got a tire Ben Doyle style and whacked that thing JUST LIKE HIM on the videos here. No tire flipping over, just pure...every time

But...I still did not hit the golf ball like I wanted. I had pivot problems. My hands were educated and I didn't flip it, but I still steered it and my pivot was awful

So my impact condition was great, but all the stuff that went into it (my pivot, lag, etc.) was not very good, which resulted in still mediocre golf. I am only now starting to become enlightened as to what I need to work on.

Yikes!
 

A prickly problem of meta-physical proportions! Impact is secondary (or at the very least incidental....preparation for impact is primary (or at the very least instrumental) We live in the present...impact is in the future...we must prepare for its inevitability, because precision is not thrown in! More practically, you can't monitor impact, hence the Three Stations! Impact IS the moment of truth...and the ball does not fib!:liar:

So impact is primary to the ball, but secondary to the golfer. Preparation is primary for the golfer and secondary to the ball! :eyes:

I think that is interesting, you can have a great impact position but if you don't have the proper dynamics you aren't going to hit the ball on the trajectory you wish to nor with enough force.

If you swing in any circle type shaped swing it's going to have a low point somewhere right? Soooooooooo the critical deal is to have the low point where YOU want it within the framework of that motion . . . So I reckon you have to identify the things that:

a. Shift Low Point
b. Allow you to consistently locate it in a fashion that allows you to compress the golf ball with the face and the path blended in a way that gets the ball to end up where you want it to.

if something goes down and then comes back up . . . it has a low point but maybe not a desired one.

Prior to the Pivot upgrade . . . what kind of shots did you hit? What did your pivot look like before?

I thought that you all knew that........


Taken from a book that is on sales at "Hinkens"-place.

"9-1 ZONE #1 includes all the elements of Body movement and balance, and defines the geometrical alignments and relationships of the Body Components. These motions are to be completely uncompromised by Arm and Club motions. Execution of a Preselected Pivot should be identical with or without Arms and Club to avoid any awkward “hitch” in the Turn when actually playing. The Pivot involves twisting the body and shifting the weight during the Stroke so as to maintain balance, a motionless head and any required tilt of the torso. All motion is in a preselected sequence and spacing of whatever Components are being employed. Emphatically, Hands are not educated until they control the Pivot."


Or am I wrong again Hinken?

6-G-0 . . . you are right to a point . ..

). Educated Hands can compensate for Off Line Hip and Shoulder Motion but only up to a point.

At the same time.................

Talk to me about 6-H-0

6-H-0 IMPERATIVES You can’t have Educated Hands unless you know what to teach them. The following curriculum is imperative....... and so on..

where does the pivot come in?

OK Popciclepecker . . . I reckon it may just have something to do with 1-L #1??? As in the FIRST THING???

6-H-0 to me anyway is STRICTLY about the Hands isolated . . .not Total Motion.

Don't make me tape wings to Mike O and fly his stankbutt over there!!!!

Left of left. Especially with the driver, lots of irons were slight pulls.

My pivot tended to "scrunch" towards the ball and then rotate vs. just rotating left...needless to say timing was a big issue. I think this was due to trying to get into a squat type position. I am to dense to realize that this position happens naturally during a good pivot.

Talk to me about what a good pivot is . . . not badgernig you . . . just interested.

Thanks dude!

B

No sway on the back swing....Start the pivot with the feet on the down swing, get my pelvis in front of the ball and rotated (both cheeks facing camera behind me at impact). Left knee does not break towards the baseline.

Good examples:

Boo
Robert Karlsson
Sergio

Example of what I don't want to look like:

Tom Lehman

No dippy knees?

That's right, no dippy knees. I like the MORAD pivot