Tom Tomasello Swinging Motion
 

Tomasello swinging per 6-B-2-0 first paragraph. "Centrifugal Force, Accumulator #1, the muscles of both forearms, any---or all---are available to actuate this Assembly." See chapter 1 of the Tomasello video chapter series from Australia where Tommy talks about starting the club down with both forearms. Oh yeah, and the uncocking action of the right elbow per 7-3 The Magic of the Right Forearm. The right forearm Karate chop...per the second Tomasello letter video.

DG

Not about who's right, It's a matter of What's RIGHT
 

For my money, this is one of the sections (6-B-2-0) in TGM that validates the teaching approaches of both Lynn and Tommy. It's not a matter of who's right, it's a matter of "What's Right".

DG

The Power Package: Pivot Delivery Versus Arm Release
 

Two crucial concepts to understand and differentiate are Delivery and Release.

In Pivot Strokes, the Power Package (6-0) -- Assembled with its Power Accumulated (6-B-0), Loaded (6-C-0) and Stored (6-D-0) -- is Delivered (6-E-0) by the Pivot (7-12) to its Release Point. Only then does the independent action of the Arms (the straightening of the Right Elbow) continue the Delivery of the Lever Assembly (Left Arm and Club) into Impact (6-K-0). In other words, only then does Arm Action -- versus Pivot Action -- "actuate" the Power Package. So . . .

First the Pivot.

Then, the Arms.

[This cries out for a video.]

:3gears:

It is this delayed extension ("uncocking") of the Right Arm -- the third side of the Triangle Assembly (6-A-1) -- that Triggers the Release (6-M-0) and drives the Club through Impact (1-L #10).

Tom Tomasello understood these concepts, as evidenced in his quotes from a video just sent me by our own Delaware Golf:

Demonstrating the Start Down and its Pivot Action, Tommy says:

"Lower the right shoulder . . . we know we don't do this [with the arms] . . .. this is what the body does, not the arms."

Then, demonstrating the Start Down Waggle (a pumping motion training the initial move from the Top), he says:

"Rock the shoulders. . . rock the shoulders."

"Now" he says, having delivered the Club well into the Downstroke via the 'rocking' Right Shoulder (Shoulder Turn Acceleration per 8-7), "uncock the arm" (Release per 8-9).

Tom's video will be in our Gallery ASAP. Thanks, Dave. :)

Bottom line: Only in Non-Pivot Strokes does the Arm action begin immediately (6-L-0). Otherwise, the Downstroke Sequence (6-M-1) is broken, the Right Shoulder remains 'high' and the Elbow becomes straight prior to (or during) Impact. This "running out of Right Arm" triggers an automatic Throwaway (6-D-0), and unless done intentionally and for a purpose, the shot is lost.

Yoda,

Per Tommy's letter series #2 video, eventhough Tommy is starting the uncocking process of the right elbow manually at the beginning of the downswing, he isn't putting the club into a released conditioned. Reference the comment about high speed camera action from letter video #2, I believe Tommy is making the point that eventhough he is throwing it from the top, he's still getting a snap release. True extension is still at the bottom of the stroke. Reference Tommy's instruction throughout all of the Chapter series videos.

Thanks for Referencing 6-K-0 and 6-L-0.

DG

TGM Simplified
 

Yoda,

Masterful translation from Homerese to Darylese. I can live on baby food. Just keep it coming.

Battlefield Promotion: A Footsoldier Assumes Command
 

Daryl,

I am in awe of YOUR recent posts (in other threads). YOU keep'em comin'!

:salut: :salut: :salut:

go, tell it on the mountain
 

If it pleases the court, can I second that motion?

I am but the humble student. But I am a student of Yoda.

Students and Teachers
 

And . . .

I am the student of Daryl.

Especially in his lay role as Master Sommelier at the Bellagio!

http://www.bellagio.com/restaurants/...sommelier.aspx

It's a good thing!

:salut:

Masterful Concoction!
 

Pinch of Daryl + a hint of Bucket = Okie's incubator perculatin !

That odor eminating from the mixture, is from the "hint" of Bucket. lol:)

100
 

I got nothin'...just post # 100

Congrats Okie.

Yoda,

That rocking right shoulder section of the video is Tommy demonstrating the Flying wedge "drill"....it's part of a "drill" (in the video it's a demonstration from an acquired motion stroke, not to be confused with a total motion stroke). Trust me, Tommy started the downswing with the right arm when the hands are above shoulder high....the uncocking of the right elbow through the use of the right forearm. The Magic of the Right Forearm. Tommy throws the club down with the uncocking motion of the right elbow through the right forearm....Tommy did not in any way teach the full swing with the right shoulder starting the club down or with the lower body....total mis-interpretation.

DG

101 Elvis Impersonators
 

Did he tilt his axis first? As I may have mentioned a while back I had the darndest time making that 2 inch lateral move...but when I thought in terms of what TT said doing his "stick drill" i.e. right shoulder moving down on plane...it helped. For ME the two toughest moves in golf are cocking and uncocking the right elbow while keeping the right wrist level and bent...and...the 2 inch lateral move to tilt the axis! My associated feel to tilt the axis is the right shoulder moving down the turned shoulder plane...I no longer look like an uncoordinated Elvis impersonator. Too be honest this post was a Trojan Horse...real purpose?...to announce my 101th post!

PS Thanks Daryl!

Yoda,

The next time I send you a video....I'll be on a plane with the delivery of the package. Because I need to go through the video with you.

You're killing me with the above analysis. Tommy rocks the shoulders with the flying wedge demonstration so the student gets the feel of the on-plane shoulders......in the demonstration Tommy rocks his shoulders three times....then stops at the top of the acquired motion stroke which he uses for a flying wedge drill....then he says to uncock the right forearm to complete the acquired motion swing (it's just a drill). That's right....the magic of the right forearm works from all locations in the stroke (again, reference the letter series #2 video, please).

In the book, Homer suggests isolating and practicing each component. In that drill Tomasello is doing just that...isolating the shoulder component number 13 at the beginning of the drill.

Yoda....please re-review the video and watch the extensor action drill (right after the flying wedge drill) for how Tommy starts the downswing. Listen to the conversation between Jack and Tommy.

DG

Translating Tommy's Instruction
 

Sorry, DG, Tommy clearly is demonstrating a Total Motion Stroke. His Backstroke moves to the Top (Right Shoulder high / 10-21-0-1), even to the End (10-21-0-3), well beyond the 'Right Forearm parallel to the ground' position (Acquired Motion Top / 12-5-2).

That said, I certainly can understand your interpretation. In other segments of the video, e.g., when demonstrating Extensor Action, Tommy just as clearly isolates the action of the Arms and moves them independently from the Top, i.e., with zero Pivot transport. He leaves his Body in a full turn and pumps only his arms, i.e., no 'shoulder rock'.

The video will speak for itself. We are presently working hard to prepare other video (Blake/Trolio) but will post this one soon. Once it is up, members can draw their own conclusions. As always, we will welcome all comments, including yours.

Jack's Ok
 

Ok, let the tape/DVD do the talkin....please get Jack's go ahead to put the video up.

Thanks,

DG

Arms, then Pivot
 

The legs plant and the lower part of the spine pivots a bit and changes directions a split second before the upper spine, arms, and club have finished their backswing. This leg/lower spine action serves two purposes: It puts the brakes on the upper spine-arms-club backswing and it pushes into the ground to create the groundforce that the arms and hands can then transmit in a different direction, if desired, by lowering, forming, and aiming a harness or "power package". The initial leg plant and slight lower spine pivot to effect the braking action and groundforce production then slows down so that energy can flow into the prepared arms, hands, and club. The arms, hands, and club then swing through the ball past the pivot and then reaccelerate the slowed pivot to the finish. Horizontal hinge action typically accelerates the pivot to a fuller more rotateded finish than angled or vertical hinge action.

Based on the above, one could convincingly argue that the pivot precedes and sets up the start down, storage, delivery, and release of the power package, but one could also convincingly argue that start down, storage, delivery, and release are muscularly handled by the arms once the plant and pivot have supplied the braking action, groundforce production, and subsequent slow down necessary for the arms and hands to then muscularly form a harness and transmit the groundforce. Until the force is transmitted by the arms and hands, a golfer has not swung to hit the ball yet. So the arms harness and transmit the force on the downswing and the slowed pivot reaccelerates and follows thereafter. Arms initiate downswing force transmission and the pivot follows, but the pivot has already accelerated a bit and then slowed to facilitate this.

First pivot then arms to initiate, generate, and complete the actual strike of the ball or the other way around? Either explanation works for me. I just need to know someone's definitions of when the backswing stops, when the downswing begins, and when the actual muscular force to strike the ball is transmitted. I usually prefer to say that the legs and pivot stop the backswing and create the groundforce that the arms can then harness and transmit to initiate the strike of the ball. Since I can check my swing and decide not to strike the ball after my downswing leg and pivot action has occurred, then I really do feel that my bent right arm receives the ultimate message from my brain to initiate the strike of the ball.

I predict that there will always be two sides to this argument and both are right, but I do believe that the legs are the engine and the arms and hands are the transmission. The muscularly active and reactive pivot is necessary for both the engine and the transmission to be effective.

Einstein said that answers to complex questions like this are usually simple, elegant, and predictable, but in this case I believe in HL Mencken who said that "For every complex problem there is a simple solution. And it's always wrong." Both sides in this debate should be prepared to be wrong, right, or neither wrong nor right depending on the premises and context of the argument.

Just Pull It Down
 

Wonderful post, Coop. Thanks!

:salut:

It calls to mind an old memory of when I was working with Homer Kelley on the range in Seattle in January 1982. He advised me to pull the club down from the top.

"What do I pull it with?" I asked. "My body? Arms? Hands?"

"I don't care what you pull it with. Just pull!"

:shock:

Strike on the outside edge of the plate
 

Probably a waste of effort for me to post this- but sometimes you just can't help but see potential and try to help it.

First, Really a very intelligent and thoughtful analysis of some of the interactions and facts happening in the golf swing- excellent. You are obviously intelligent and motivated.

It's also unique that the unlabeled problem in your post (as I see it) is summarized in your last paragraph. I call it a problem because it is and will limit how far you can take your ideas and knowledge. Without getting too deep- Epistemology is the 2nd branch of Philosophy- the study of knowldege- "How do you know what you know?" and whether consciously or subconsciously you've chosen H L Mencken/ Friedich Nietzsche/ Analytical Philosophy versus the inherent principles of knowledge that Einstein used based on Aristotle. It's also those principles - that allowed the level of achievement or lack thereof for each.

Summary- Either you can take my post as a compliment to your very insightful and intelligent post! PM me and I could give you a few ideas of things to read that would make you even better. Or take my post as a complete insult and ban me from the forum. Or finally, just take it as some ego-head rantings and ignore it completely. Or anything in between, either option is fine with me- no matter what I'm sure Bucket will have an insightful follow-up post!:)

P.S. Here is my condensed version- You've made one mistake in your post- you've chosen Mencken over Einstein.

And Yes, I know- "What does this have to do with Tomasello Swinging motion?!- I'm sure DG will scold me shortly and tell me to create my own thread- and the beat goes on!"

That's beyond my nut. :notworthy

A point to remember.......
 

I think from time to time we all get infected with the idea that there is one right way or best way to play this gaime. That there is one way to get to a perfect swing. I certainly plead guilty as charged.

Then I think back to a video of Hogan saying "I knew my swing wasn't the best out here. That is why I outworked 'em." And I recall hearing video of a younger Yoda talking with Homer on the phone, asking about the best way of several aspects of the swing. From Homer's perspective, there were options and combinations, not one best way! That flexibility is what makes TGM so fresh and adaptable. I see Ted Fort on the net questioning a BioKinetic expert about complex hip movements. The challenge is not to find the one best way. It is to seek out the way that works the best for each of us.
Geez, I love this game. And this site!

UPP in freezing Ohio

Spaceships
 

It's just like building spaceships and going into space. Lot's of different options but you need to follow certain principles. Or quoting Homer Kelley- and in somewhat more of a limited example he says "....for people-shaped golfers, there is actually only "one swing,", as depicted in Chapter 8 and discussed in Chapter 7. Just for clarification "seeking out the way that works the best for each of us", doesn't mean anything goes or there is no right or wrong. So, to my fellow poster in beautiful Ohio:) , I'm not saying you said that or implied that - but I'm just clarifying for anyone that might read that might get that impression- that anything goes- which isn't the case. At least, that's my 2 cents. Staying on the Philosophy thread for a minute- I'm not a fan of Pragmatism either- even if it is somewhat popular.

1st Cause...um..Class!
 

r.i.p.
 

When I've stopped learning, send flowers. &D:

Jibber Jabber......
 

All I have to say is......Checkout the Swing of Tom Tomasello that LBG and company posts, new video of Tommy teaching from 1987. Tommy's swing will do the talkin....it's the best set of swings from Tommy that I have seen on video to date. He is approximately 67 at this time and his swing is as smooth and powerful as a golfer half his age...might be at the peak of his golf swing. Real Fluid....better than most of the players on the PGA tour today...After watching this video I'm starting to understand how the smooth swings of Tomasello and Jodie Mudd where developed. It's in this video...

DG

Right on Time!
 

Thanks DG- Right on time as scheduled:)

Jibber Jabber 2....Thank You!!! :)
 

All I have to say is......Checkout the Swing of Tom Tomasello that LBG and company posts, new video of Tommy teaching from 1987. Tommy's swing will do the talkin....it's the best set of swings from Tommy that I have seen on video to date. He is approximately 67 at this time and his swing is as smooth and powerful as a golfer half his age...might be at the peak of his golf swing. Real Fluid....better than most of the players on the PGA tour today...After watching this video I'm starting to understand how the smooth swings of Tomasello and Jodie Mudd where developed. It's in this video...

DG

Flowers
 

Ted,
Bucket wants to know what's your address.:naughty: I told him it wasn't appropriate to ask but then he went bezerk- they've got him up on the third floor right now- all drugged up and strapped down! Probably be a day or two before you see him post again.

Meet George Jetson . . . .

What the hell!!!!

Awesome Swing
 

The key thing to watch with this new video....how efficient Tomasello's swing is....free of wasted motion/energy. As Tommy said.....it's one smooth motion. Tommy is truly swinging the golf club like the way he talked about it in his 1991 GI interview, the most efficient centifugal golf swing.

DG

have him call
 

Have him call me at 867-5309. He tries to pull off the insanity thing every time he's in need of three squares and a warm place to sleep. No telling why his wife kicked him out this time. I'd be afraid to ask.

The Mencken quote was my attempt at satire. Mencken was a famous early 20th century American journalist, essayist, and political commentator who was well known for his use of satire and for his sharp critiques of American life and culture.

If I was to truly pit Einstein's Aristotelian principles of knowledge against opposite views, I would offer the priciples of knowledge that physicists Niels Bohr, Werner Heisenberg and others developed. Einstein challenged these principles in what is often called the Bohr-Einstein debates. The debates were also referred to as Einstein's challenges against the standard or Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics.

How Bohr and Heisenberg reached their conclusions is over my head, but if their conclusions are right, then I think my forum entry stands its ground right up to and including the last paragraph. If you research Bohr's complimentarity principle, Heisenberg's uncertainty principle, and quantum indeterminism in general, you may conclude, like many Nobel prize winners in physics have concluded, that observation and measurement of phenomena, even at the macroscopic level, may remain eternally enigmatic. Einstein's most profound argument against indeterminacy may have been that he believed that God did not play dice.

Did you get that number off the wall?

And I thought TGM-terminology was difficult........................:laughing1 :laughing9

To quote my fellow poster Daryl "That's beyond my nut. ":)

"Oh My . . ."
 

"Toto, I've a feeling we're not in Kansas anymore!"
-- Dorothy in The Wizard of Oz

Karl Popper said there were only two types of scientific theories. Those proven to be untrue and those yet to be proven untrue. Makes sense.

When that song came out, this poor woman in Saratoga, CA got bombarded every minute with phone calls. She ended up having to get her number changed.