Dr. Z
 

Who is this Aaron Zick fella? Should I care?

I ain't no junior!
 

I'm finally a MEMBER!

Good Question.

Despite his subjects, The golfing machine llc. trusts him enough to have him speak at the TGM-summits for the second year in a row.

Any forum member that had the chance to attend the summit?

Take Two!
 

I do not want to start a "forum fester" , but I am curious to know what the proficients at LBG/Forum make of the Dr. Zick findings, especially pertaining to the importance of the inside aft quadrant of the ball. Not hitting the direct back of the ball has been helpful to me, but I shudder to think it is a "feels as though" thing.

In addition, due to this info, mention was made of Homer Kelley "whiffing" on this particular issue, and two others.

I have not the first clue what the specifics of the findings are, just the fact that it suggest's Homer was wrong! I will wince and wait!

Aiming At the Ball: Delivery Line Versus Delivery Path
 

From the Top, you have two ways of staying On Plane:

1. After an On Plane Start Down through the Downstroke to Release -- usually achieved by pulling the butt end of the Club (via Pivot Lag) directly toward the Baseline of the Inclined Plane -- Trace that Straight Line with the Right Forearm and #3 Lag Pressure Point (Right Forefinger). This is an 'On Line' procedure delivering the Clubhead into Impact.

2. From the Top, Drive the Hands (and the Lag Pressure Point) directly toward the Aiming Point (usually the Ball). This is a 'Cross Line' procedure delivering the Hands into Impact.

These techniques produce identical Clubhead Orbits, but they are achieved in two distinctly different ways:

1. When Delivering the Clubhead, Trace the Straight Plane Line and aim for the dead back of the Ball (through which the Plane Line passes).

2. When Delivering the Hands, aim the Lag Pressure Point down the Straight Line Delivery Path and aim for the inside-aft quadrant (through which the Line of Thrust passes).

The above precision notwithstanding, Larry Nelson told me after his 1983 U.S. Open win that his key swing thought was driving his Right Shoulder through Impact.

"Do you drive your shoulder toward the ball?" asked I.

Said he with a twinkle in his eye: "I try to think of the ball as little as possible."

And Bobby Jones (Bobby Jones On Golf, 1966) had this to say:

"The player who preserves the angle of his wrist-cock, and who keeps his swing down by means of the proper action of the right side [Emphasis mine] and a taut left arm, does not need to worry about looking up. Indeed, he will find nothing in the world so interesting, at this particular moment, as the back side of the ball that he is going to strike."

:)

Care to comment?
 

I am aware (thanks to Yoda & co. ) of the two options available. I do not really know what Dr. Zick is claiming. What caught my eye was a certain GSED suggesting that Homer Kelley whiffed. My loyalty is based on correct information...I lack the expertise to reconcile what Manzella is on about. Not looking to throw the cat amongst the pigeons (a 700 year old green guy will do!:)) They seem to revelling in this information "over there." Cockiness is a trait I hate (in others of course!)

Thanks for yet another frightfully complete explantion. I like delivering my mittens!

Okie out

Into Thin Air
 

I do not know Dr. Zick nor am I familiar with his arguments. I understand he spoke at the recent TGM Teaching Summit for AIs and presented controversial views. Fine by me.

I do know that most arguments 'against' TGM are specious and simply evaporate when its principles are correctly understood.

Ok
 

OK, then. Thanks for commenting on it. No doubt you have grown weary of that particular activity over the years!

No blasphemy, just debate
 

Having attended the Summit I can tell you that what Dr Zick showed me was that the ball is struck from the inside but that it is not as much as "some" have been led to believe. It is perhaps a "dimple" or two from the center and not the entire "inside quandrant". This topic has really been made more of than it probably deserves. The real debateble (sic) notion was that horizontal and angled hinge action cause little or no effect on the flight of the ball. I still am not totally sold on that one just yet. The summit was a great time, only around a couple dozen attendees though. I was wishing there would be more to meet.

The effect of the hinging has a direct relationship to how fast the door is closing.

The faster the hinging motion, the more spin is applied to the ball. For example, the faster, or further, preferably both, the club face moves counter clockwise around the ball between impact and separation the more hinging effect, will result.

Dr Z's spinning class
 

Not according to the man with the phD. Given the animated pictures he showed us the two do not differ enough considering the short amount of time the club is in contact to make that substancial a difference. It was the kind of physics stuff that makes my head spin. :happy3: The Dr. also didn't think the term "scattered vectors" was appropriate terminology in "physics" talk. He and Mr. Doyle had a conversation about that topic........interesting summit to say the least...hope more of you can attend next time

Goliath Beware
 

Great, Burner. Really great. Thanks.

To the end of the Follow-Through (Both Arms Straight position), Horizontal Hinging has the greatest Clubhead travel, and Vertical Hinging has the least. So, the essential difference in the Hinge Actions is their Rhythm -- Left Arm and Clubshaft together -- as the Clubhead orbits through Impact.

Actually, the Clubhead Door is always uniformly orbiting (about its Center, the Left Shoulder). It is merely a 'ball of steel' serving the same purpose as David's stone whirling toward Goliath.

It is that pesky Clubface Door that gives us so much trouble. As the Clubhead orbits, the Clubface can Close Only, Lay Back Only or simultaneously Close and Lay Back.

So, there are two Centers (2-D-0):

One for the Clubhead; and

One for the Clubface.

Horizontal and Vertical Hinging permit the Clubhead and Clubface to orbit around the same Center (the Left Shoulder, though in dramatically different ways).

Angled Hinging does not. Hence, it produces its characteristic slicing, uncentered Motion.

If you are having a problem visualizing this concept, rest easy. Even Homer Kelley hit the wall here. Ultimately, he built a model, attempting to determine the Center of the Clubhead Orbit with Angled Hinging. His conclusion:

"There is no Center with Angled Hinging."

Tides and Ball Flights
 

Tomorrow morning at Starbucks, take a look:

In your coffee cup, there is a tide.

Think about it.

:)

Thinking over a $5 coffee, wow and the oil companies make too much money!
 

tide1 /taɪd/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[tahyd] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation, noun, verb, tid·ed, tid·ing.
–noun 1. the periodic rise and fall of the waters of the ocean and its inlets, produced by the attraction of the moon and sun, and occurring about every 12 hours.
2. the inflow, outflow, or current of water at any given place resulting from the waves of tides.
3. flood tide.
4. a stream or current.
5. anything that alternately rises and falls, increases and decreases, etc.: the tide of the seasons.
6. current, tendency, or drift, as of events or ideas: the tide of international events.
7. any extreme or critical period or condition: The tide of her illness is at its height.
8. a season or period in the course of the year, day, etc. (now used chiefly in combination): wintertide; eventide.
9. Ecclesiastical. a period of time that includes and follows an anniversary, festival, etc.
10. Archaic. a suitable time or occasion.
11. Obsolete. an extent of time.
–verb (used without object) 12. to flow as the tide; flow to and fro.
13. to float or drift with the tide.
–verb (used with object) 14. to carry, as the tide does.
—Verb phrase15. tide over, a. to assist in getting over a period of difficulty or distress.
b. to surmount (a difficulty, obstacle, etc.); survive.

—Idiom16. turn the tide, to reverse the course of events, esp. from one extreme to another: The Battle of Saratoga turned the tide of the American Revolution.

Seeing "Stars"buck
 

Is what I am trying to think about the fact that if you are stuck in the middle of the ocean, you may not see the effects of the tide even though it is happening? I hope so, because some big women with a jelly donut wants my seat........:eyes:

One Set of Laws Per Universe
 

To review, I was responding to your quote:

The point of my 'tide in your coffee cup' example is that the laws of force and motion apply universally. There is only one set, and there are no exceptions. So, visible or not, the 'tide' in your coffee is there; the coffee 'knows' it and responds accordingly.

Similarly, the premise that Impact lasts only a fraction of a second and that the Clubface Motion during that time cannot be readily observed, does not gain exemption from Law. Suppose the Ball was as large as the earth, the Clubface was sized accordingly and Impact lasted a thousand years. Would there then be enough difference to 'see'? Remember, regardless of magnitude or duration, the same Law applies.

The bottom line is that, however brief the moment of Impact or however slight the Clubface Motion during that violent collision, the laws of force and motion govern. The Ball knows it . . .

And tells everybody!

:laughing9

Yeah!
 

That's what I am talking about!:salut:

merry christmas and thank you mr. kelley !!!!!!!!!
 

thanks yoda.
so many of the propositions of the golfing machine have to be understood within context. thus the the criticisms are always specious. it is too hard to understand ,and who wants to devote that much time ! especially when it doesn't work in ones golf swing instantly and simultaneously. inform and instruct AND absorb and apply instantly and simultaneously good luck ?(although instantaneous and simultaneous does immediately help at start up.) "it is a precision system." and "it's continual progress and not instant perfection"(intellectually and physically) . i didn't realize but all of these things are not conducive to instant ego-gratification. 42 years mr. kelley ??? what a tribute !!!!!!!!
i don't know what dr. zick's criticisms of the golfing machine are exactly((the most i have learned is "the inside-aft quadrant" is not right.(rather vague?) it is not clear whether dr. zick thinks mr. kelley is wrong on this point or whether dr. zick has other targets in mind.)) but it APPEARS THE CRITICISM SEEMS TO BE ( i realize this is not strong language but it is all i have so far) that the clubhead (?) moving to the inside aft-quadrant of the ball is too great (again rather vague) .
however mr. kelley writes in 2-j-3 (oh my god not 2-j-3 again !!!) "the 'VISUAL (my emphasis) arc of approach' delivery line is the curved line of angular motion and actually meets the ball on its inside-aft quadrant as it travels DOWN(my emphasis again) to the low point plane line and BACK ACROSS THE IMPACT PLANE LINE AGAIN( and my emphasis again)."
if the clubhead is to stay on plane it obviously cannot hit an extreme inside-aft portion of the ball for the clubhaed to "pass back across the plane line again" .
now it seems as if the interpretation of dr. zick, and i do not want to be unfair to him, is leaving out the downward element of the clubhead orbit. which would also effect the up and in portion of the stroke. in short the crticism seems to be that the stroke is too much in and out on the downstroke. instead of the down and out ,up and in, THREE DIMENSIONAL ON PLANE DOWNSTROKE .
and leaving out the relevant wrist actions and hinge actions along with, and especially the VISUAL equivalents and their relationship to the inclined plane and pressure point #3 and its relation to the inclined plane, without going into the complications of 2-j-3 and hitting (whew !) !!

comrade

Crystallizing Thoughts
 

Nice work, comrade. Thanks for your posts!

Merry X'mas
 

Any on issue regarding the flat left wrist past impact?