Shoulders lead the arms
 

Hi
I'm still waiting for my Yellow Book . I have a question about the shoulders leading the arms. I tried this at the range and it worked great. Once my back is facing the target I think of turning my shoulders and upper torso and let the arms follow. I hit the ball sweet long and straight.
Heres my question is there any mention of this in TGM?
I've read that as long as I maintain my spine angle I won't come over the top.
Everytime I try this at the range it works great. I also have good results using Tom Tomasello's advice.
Is this just a fluke that will turn on me or is this a valid swing method in having the shoulders lead the arms in the swing?
Thanks
Ralph

The Master Move
 

Not only is this move in The Book, ralphs007, it is considered the Master Power Accumulator (of four). Its basic function is explained in 6-B-4-0 and its Maximum Power and Maximum Trigger Delay are explained respectively in 6-B-4-A and -C.

It is the period of Shoulder Acceleration during the Start Down (8-7), i.e., the Pivot (7-12) transporting the Power Package (6-0) before any independent movement of the Arms occurs (6-K-0). The initial Thrust thus supplied, the Arms then Deliver the Loaded Power Package to the Release Point. This is the period of Hand Acceleration (8-8 ).

Then, the selected Release Trigger takes over -- Left Wrist (Swingers) or Right Arm (Hitters) -- and Delivers the entire Primary Lever Assembly (the Left Arm and Club) -- into Impact. This is the period of the lengthening Right Arm (6-A-1; 6-B-1-0; Active/Hitting or Passive/Swinging) and Clubhead Acceleration (8-9).

All of which leads to Impact...that most delicious period of Ball Acceleration (8-10).

In other words...

CRACK!!!

:)

Always, I mean -always, great to read your posts, yoda.


I wanted to add-

Thats the Pivot Lag Train. The Body Leads the Arms that Leads the Club. This is basic Clubhead Lag. This is all under control of the Hands. The body is not yanking the arms around willy nilly. Be careful not to get off Plane. The pivot, arms and club are inline- in rhythm, TGM style- making beautiful music, not noise.

nice!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Hi
Thanks to everyone who replied. I keep notes on what worked for me when I practice . One day I was fooling around with the shoulders leading the arms. I never hit the ball so pure and on target. I wasn't sure I should stay with this method but the ball seamed to take off like a rocket. I was afraid of coming over the top. Today I tried it again and I was amazed at the power and accuracy I had.
It seams as long as I maintane my spine angle I'm not going to go left.
Thanks again everybody!!!
Ralph

Maybe it's just me...
 

Love it when Yoda talks with numbers.

Is the initial focus for this start, coming from the left or the right shoulder for a right handed player?

Alrighty then!
 

Right Shoulder hopefully is On Plane, the Left Shoulder is not. The Geometry of Shoulder control deals only with the Right Shoulder.

And that kind of answer is why I like it here! Thanks Drewitgolf!

Edit: ....and so much more

Yoda, Can you explain your reply without the book language?
 

I had the yellow book but can not find it right now. I wasn't able to understand it anyway.

I have been trying to hold my shoulders back until the arms fall while keeping the right wrist bent. This seems to be the opposite of what you are saying. I go this from Mark Evershed. Would I be better off leading with the shoulders?

This discussion has me confused. If I try to move my shoulders first to initiate the downstroke, I have no consistency at all. When I try to swing my arms and let my pivot--which I understand includes the shoulder turn--respond to the swinging of my arms, I hit it consistently straight. This past Friday, I hit a 3-wood 250, which for me is an exceptionally long 3-wood, with the conscious swing thought of keeping my right shoulder back to allow my arms to swing in front of my body. I swng my arms and let my pivot follow, which allows the pivot to deliver my arms and the swinging club to the ball. That is just the opposite of what seems to me described above. Am I doing it wrong?

If the results are consistently good, don't mess with it.

I'd Like to Teach the World to Swing!
 

The Accelerating Thrust of Centrifugal Force is a Pulling Lengthwise Motion which results in a Throw Out Action. It can be accomplished by the Left Arm or the Right Arm, both are in a condition to Pull. It is your choice which one you use. Left Arm Swingers (using the Left Shoulder as the Stroke Center) use the Pivot to create a Transfer of Body Momentum. Right Arm Swingers (using the Right Elbow as the Stroke Center) use the Right Tricep to Pull and may not need thet use of Body Momentum.

If I am a right-arm swinger, how should I relate my pattern to Yoda's previous comment on the initial shoulder turn, "It is the period of Shoulder Acceleration during the Start Down (8-7), i.e., the Pivot (7-12) transporting the Power Package (6-0) before any independent movement of the Arms occurs (6-K-0). The initial Thrust thus supplied, the Arms then Deliver the Loaded Power Package to the Release Point. This is the period of Hand Acceleration (8-8 )"?

This quotation suggests that one should begin the downstroke with the pivot and then begin swinging the arms as delivery of the power package. Is this to be understood as one pattern among many, or should this be a part of every pattern? The reason this interests me is that I have finally found consistency and power once I figured out how to accomplish the three imperatives by allowing my pivot to respond to the arm swing, rather than having my pivot drive my arm swing.

The Hand-Controlled Right Shoulder
 

My friend and student, rprevost, is being very 'politically correct' here. :)

He visited me in The Swamp this past summer, and I taught him to 'keep the right shoulder back' (from the Top) and to 'swing the Arms' down and through the ball. He learned a true, Hand-Controlled Pivot and left striping shot-after-shot with many yards added to every drive. Now, here I am stating that the Pivot -- the Body's Rotation -- delivers the loaded Power Package from Start Down into Release. Is there an inconsistency here?

You bet!

And that inconsistency is between 'Feel' and 'Real'.

The BODY is Zone 1 -- PIVOT. It sets up the circular, centrifugal Motion of the Stroke.

The ARMS are Zone 2 -- POWER. Along with the Club, they supply the Force of the Stroke.

In the Start Down and Downstroke, the PIVOT leads and the Arms follow. Not the other way around. Otherwise, the Right Arm must begin its straightening immediately from the Top, and this can only result in Throwaway.

So...

The Pivot consists of the Feet, Knees, Hips and Shoulders. Lower Body and Upper Body. The Lower Body leads and the Upper Body lags.

Pivot Lag (6-C-0; 6-M-1).

When the Right Shoulder stays BACK -- ON PLANE -- as it should in Start Down (7-13), it feels as if it is doing NOTHING. But that is NOT the case! In fact, the Body is moving first -- from the Feet up -- and is actively transferring the Pivot Motion to the Arms and Hands. But that transference is not with a Right Shoulder returning to its Off Plane Address Position (and thus forcing the Hands to follow its ignorant lead). Instead, the Right Shoulder is Turning Down Plane and returning all Pivot and Power Package Components to their pre-selected Impact position. Thus, the Power Package is Delivered Down Plane to Release by the last and farthest moving Component of the Pivot, i.e., the Turning Right Shoulder.

The Arms and Hands feel as though it was their idea all the time.

Which, of course, it was.

:)

Yoda, Thanks for the explanation! And thanks again for this summer. Best money I have ever spent on instruction. I have never hit the ball so consistently straight and long as I have since my lesson in August. I have finally come to a point in my golf game, something I have sought for years, where I have enough confidence off the tee to begin to focus on my short game. And, boy, does that need work!

Lessons Absorbed and Applied
 

Thank you, rprevost, for your boost -- :) -- and, most of all, for your ardent attention and application.

Now, c'mon back, and let's get to work on that short game!

:salut:

Surfacing from CFA Studies
 

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...........

From another respected GSED.....

Tomasello:........"All that stuff about leading with a lateral move of the lower body, driving the hips and legs toward the target to retain power---it's all terribly wrong! It seems to be whats happening, but it's not really what happens in the most efficient, centrifugal-force golf swing."

Tomasello: The only agility needed by the player is to able to turn the hips---to pivot around a fixed point---and to lever and unlever the right forearm. The faster you can make those two movements, the greater the centrifugal force you'll build up and the farther you'll hit the ball.

Tomasello: All these body parts move, of course, but only in response to the up-and-down force of the right forearm and the outward force of hip rotation.

Sounds like the last paragraph of 7-3, MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM.

rprevost, you're swinging the golf club the way Homer taught Tom Tomasello TGM.


DG

Houston, we have a problem
 

I'm sorry DG...but, the answer to every question cannot be 7-3, the MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM. I know it's one of your favorites, as it is mine. And, I respect your knowledge, experience with Tommy, personal research, etc.

But, there are only three subjects covered in "the Magic".

1. The raising and lowering of the left arm
2. The cocking and uncocking of the left wrist
3. The lack of change in the right wrist conditions

All this (the aforementioned), you will come to know as the MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM.

It doesn't say, "all this and many other things, you will come to know as the MAGIC OF THE RIGHT FOREARM."

I don't read it as a Right Forearm controlled Pivot.

yee haw
 

ATTA BOY!!!!!!

How can a 250 yard 3 wood be wrong. How about overly right :) As they say, BEEN THERE DONE THAT!!!!

DG